Episode 4: How to Find & Cultivate REAL Friendships - David Kim, Author of Made to Belong
One of the most common (yet most unspoken) struggles of adulthood is making REAL friendships.
In today’s episode, we sit down with David Kim, Discipleship and Formation Pastor at WestGate Church in San Jose and author of Made to Belong: Five Practices for Cultivating Community in A Disconnected World.
From surveying more than 1,300 Christians, David discovered that the #1 most common challenge that everyone struggles with is loneliness.
It’s often unspoken, but we all crave life-giving relationships and community. Yet they seem to be increasingly hard to find.
For Mental Health Awareness Month, we wanted to talk about an area of mental and emotional health that we find is often not talked about (in-depth) much:
How to actually find friends who can come alongside you in love, to help fight for your highest good.
In a world that settles for shallow relationships, we hope this episode helps you find the authentic, rich, meaningful connection and belonging with others who help you grow and thrive the way God made you to!
TOPICS:
0:00 - Intro
1:12 - David's personal story that inspired the book
2:25 - Why is it so hard to make real friends as an adult?
5:50 - False beliefs and common myths people believe about community
8:43 - If you're struggling to find community, should you stay or look elsewhere?
12:41 - How to practically prioritize community despite life's busyness
16:23 - The need for community for ministry leaders
19:30 - Why accountability matters and why it's last of the 5 practices
20:30 - How spiritual abuse stems from unhealthy accountability
24:20 - Examples of how to model healthy and helpful accountability
29:52 - How to know which friendships to prioritize vs. let go
34:05 - The 5 Key Practices for cultivating community
35:48 - Reflection Questions & Action Steps
40:27 - What David's working on next and how to connect with him
41:37 - A preview of next week's special episode!
ABOUT OUR GUEST:
David Kim is the Discipleship and Formation pastor at WestGate Church in Silicon Valley, California and author of Made to Belong: Five Practices for Cultivating Community in a Disconnected World.
He completed his M.Div and Th.M from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, and his children's book on dealing with change was selected for Oprah's Favorite Things list.
He cares deeply about the intersection of spiritual formation, theology, mental health, and the cultivation of authentic Christian communities. He lives with his wife and two daughters in San Jose, California.
You can connect with him at www.davidjanghyunkim.com or on Instagram: @davidjanghyunkim.
RECOMMENDED RESOURCES:
BOOK: Made to Belong: Five Practices for Cultivating Community in a Disconnected World by David Kim
VIDEO: Expand Your Friendship Circle while Prioritizing the Most Important Relationships by Dr. Henry Cloud
VIDEO: How to Make Sure You Are Investing Time and Energy into The Right Relationships by Dr. Henry Cloud
SMALL GROUPS: If you’re not already in one, we highly encourage you to look into small groups through a local church near you! (Or ask someone you know for recommendations!)
EPISODE #1: The #1 Most Important Thing In Life Is This.
Transcript
[0:00]
Have you ever struggled to make friends as an adult?
I know it might sound trivial or basic, but we have all struggle with that many times in our lives, and because it's Mental Health Awareness Month, we really want to talk about community and friendships - which is a huge part of being mentally healthy.
Today, we have a special conversation with David Kim on this topic that you do not want to miss.
All right. Well, today we have a very special guest. His name is David Kim. So for those who don't know, David is one of the pastors at WestGate Church based here in the Bay Area, he's their Discipleship and Formation Pastor, and he just came out with a really exciting new book called Made to Belong - and it's all about community. Alex has been eating it up, and I've been hearing all about it.
Thanks for just diving into this topic. We feel like community is such an important topic, yet we don't really go into the layers of it enough in the Church.
So first of all, could you just kind of talk, very broadly speaking, what inspired you to write this book, on this topic, out of all things you could have written about?
[1:12]
Yeah, so I was born in South Korea and came to the States when I was 10. And what I began to realize is that, I mean, everything changed before my eyes: my church community, friends, neighborhood, schools, food, I mean, you name it.
And as I began to navigate some of the crazy changes that was unfolding before my eyes, I realized that I had a lot of pain of loneliness and isolation as an immigrant kid. And then fast forward as I began to go into my own pastoral ministry, I realized that it wasn't just a immigrant story.
It was many people who are even in Christian community, saying hey, I need, I need more community, or… pastor, help me find community. And so I began to realize that this is not a David Kim or an Asian American or an immigrant problem. This is a a global problem, and the pandemic only revealed what we've known all along:
That many of our communities might have been more of a surface-level or a shallower level of conversations. I wrote it mainly for me and mainly for our church community. But I think many people can resonate with that.
[2:25]
I love how in your book, you talked about your upbringing, as well. You mentioned you had a very busy father who was ministry, and I remember you even wrote in your book that he worked up to 18 hours a day even now as an adult. I don't know if present day applies, but you're still pretty busy with ministry. And at the time, as a younger adult, you didn't value ministry as much - so that takes us to our first question for you is:
From your research and experience, what have you seen that makes it so hard to have real friends as an adult?
Okay, so much to talk about here, but a couple things that come to my mind: Here in Silicon Valley, and I think many people can relate wherever you may be, I think we live in a busy culture and so, traffic's terrible, and we are in a culture of hurry, and John Mark Comer talks about that.
And I think we are too busy and often distracted by our own agendas. And John Ortberg would say people don't come to Silicon Valley for relationships. We come for work. And so even that- there's a different focus in which we are navigating our world.
I also think we also live in a non-committal world, and so we'd like to have many options. And so we don't want to really invest into a certain kind of small group or community or friends. We kinda want to see which one we can quickly shift to depending on our taste and our personality and… (Everything’s catered to you.)
Right. And also kind of thinking about, we do live in, I think more and more we live in a individualistic society. I mean, we've always said that, but more and more with the advancement of the digital age and just having our smartphones next to us, I think we can pretty much sadly live the world alone, we can order food, we can tag- I mean, we can do all sorts of things and we begin to believe the lie that “I actually can live in this world alone” and that's a lie of the enemy. And our smartphones are only encouraging that lie.
And so, with so much going on, I think- and of course there's a spiritual component as well, right? That the enemy’s ultimate goal is to isolate you from God and one another, right? And if he can do that, then you begin to believe all sorts of lies that “God has abandoned me,” that “I'm alone.”
And I think we are facing significant challenges as we navigate friendships and community and so, yeah, this is very important and something really passionate about.
Yeah, we can tell you're very passionate about it, which is amazing because I think a lot of people, just like you said, society has set it up more and more for us to be isolated, independent, and as you're talking, I was even thinking, you know, a lot of memes now, they're like, “oh, haha, like I hate people. I just want to be by myself,” and it's kind of almost become accepted to just be alone all the time, and there's nothing wrong with having healthy alone time and being introverted; I'm personally, both of us are introverts, as well, but there's definitely, you know, there's a way to do life with people and a healthy tension that we hold, right, with like taking care of our ourselves and our alone time but also investing in those friendships.
[5:50]
So I wonder if we could just dive in a little bit more into: what are some of the maybe false beliefs or the myths that even we as Christians can easily fall into now? Like you talked about more and more people are being independent and isolated, and you don't need to ask your neighbor for milk anymore. You don't need to- you can just Google everything or Chat-GPT everything now, so I wonder if are there other myths that you feel like people just believe in about community that are not true.
Yeah, the first one is I would say that “there is a perfect community or perfect church out there.” This is why when people begin to “church shop” or explore, they get so frustrated. And they have such a high standard of what in ideal or perfect church, and Bonhoeffer speaks against that, an ideal of what a perfect community looks like.
But the reality is that because of our sin and brokeness, there isn't a such thing as a perfect community, or even a perfect friend. And with your high standard, I think you leave often dissatisfied.
And so, you move on from one church to another, one community to another, one small group to another, friend to another, like, “I've been friends for a while, but like, man, like, you're not really like, we're not clicking anymore.” So off you go.
And I think that perfect church, the ideal church is a very big myth that we still believe today and sadly, that many Christians do.
And I would say alongside that, people think that it's actually easy to build friendships, but it's not. I think there's a thing where it's like, “oh, we- I just need to find or discover this friend or community.”
We don't rarely find community, we have to build it. We have to build and forge community, so it's really on me and us to intentionally work together to work through conflicts and work through difficulties and really build something out of that.
Instead of thinking, “somehow, community will find me right somewhere, somehow, someone will finally pursue me,” and when you kind of take a passive approach, that it would be easily discoverable, I think what we begin to do is that we put less effort on ourselves to begin and initiate conversations.
And I think those are some of the things that I see often and as I navigate through kind of pastoral ministry and “one anothers” here in Silicon Valley.
Yeah, I can definitely relate with the church-hopping. I did plenty of that earlier in my Christian life, and I think a lot of our listeners do feel a sense of loneliness and isolation and, they do go to church, they are part of small groups as well.
[8:43]
What would you say to someone who is plugged into church and even community and people all around, but they just can't find their people? What would you say to that person? Like, when is the benchmark or the threshold to maybe look somewhere else? How would you speak into that?
Yeah, certainly. I'm not saying- I am certainly for exploring with God, right? And if God is encouraging your stirring, your heart to move and pursue a different community, I mean that's certainly part of that conversation, but I think we often quit a little bit faster than what God has intended.
And of course, if there is a leadership abuse, spiritual abuse, I'm not saying, oh yeah, you should stay in to that. If there's a significant theological or biblical disagreement right, that, oh yeah, it's continued to believe in the very things that you don't even actually believe, right, I mean, of course, there are important reasons why you should leave. And so I would say, yeah, abuse, theological differences, those are all common ones in which I do think you should, we would encourage you to move.
While saying all that, for those who are in the community and thinking, like, “I don't know how to find community.” That's literally the reason why I wrote this book. The book is really about not just critiquing where we are in a culture, but talking about how to build practices.
And I talk about five practices in which we can cultivate meaningful and deep community. And my take is that we don't do that enough. And we just show up to Sunday gatherings and small groups, hoping that that's enough. Then that's just the start. And these five practices, which I talk about in the book are designed for you to continue to lean into deeper waters with your people, so that you can build, and again, forge the community that you've been longing for in your own journey.
So good. Yeah, I feel like a common theme from this conversation I'm already seeing is you have to be active, you have to be intentional, and not just expect things to be handed to you on a silver plate.
And it reminds me of any relationship we have, whether it's marriage, you know, dating, or with God, you know, we talked about this in our first episode: of your relationship with God is something you need to really be intentional with. You can't just expect to have amazing relationship if you don't work at it. So yeah, it's kind of weird that with friendships we often think, “oh, it should be easy. It should just happen naturally,” when it actually does take work.
[11:19]
Yeah, yeah. And I would say, you know, there are certain people who say, you know, “man, it's my pastor's fault,” right? And “if the pastor did a better job at building community, if the elders, or the serve teams, or guest experience worth more friendly or or small group leaders, or my friends in the church community.”
And so what ends up happening is, and this is so true, my pastor would say, if Joe has a problem with John, and Joy has a problem with Jennifer, and Joy has a problem with Paul, who's the real problem?
And so there is an invitation for us to pause and say, instead of quickly critiquing the very people and the community and its leaders around, maybe there's an invitation also from God to maybe self-reflect and say, “is there anything that's within me that is causing some relationships to not deepen?” And often we will instead of, again, pointing the finger, “is there something that I'm doing that's causing other people to not want to build relationships with me?” And I know that sounds a little bit harsh, but I think it's an invitation for self-reflection and self-awareness, as well.
I think a lot of people in this generation, we’re always not- we're hesitant to take responsibility of when things are not going our way, so we're like, “oh, it’s their fault,” or “it's because of this external circumstance.” But like, so many times, God is wanting us to look inside ourselves. Like, what do we need to work on in our character and our formation, right?
[12:41]
We won't spoil your book, but one of the principles that we really love that you talked about was priority. And I think this really is challenging for our generation, because we hear this all the time people like, “oh yeah I know I need to make time,” “oh, I've been trying to make small groups, sorry I can't make it again this week,” so we just we hear that a lot.
Like, there's a lot of, you know, “good” reasons. And you know, I understand your life is busy, but what would you say to people who- they're trying to get into community, but they just can't seem to make the time?
I would say even for folks who say, you know, “I'm a young parent,” and I'm a young parent, I have two girls and say, hey, you understand this world, it’s crazy raising young kids, and I would say even for folks who have crazy work schedule and family schedule, my invitation and God's invitation ultimately, is that: Don't you need community all the more when your life is that busy and that crazy?
So if I'm raising two kids, I need more of the communal support than ever before. So, instead of using that as an excuse for not being in a small group or not being in a community, that's an invitation to even say, “oh boy, I need more help than I've ever done before,” and I think it's a mentality shift for many people. So that's the first kind of invitation, I would say.
And then the second thing is, is that, we have time, I think we just have a terrible time management problem. Yes, right? Yeah. So that's another myth. I think we all have time, and we need to just get better at blocking off our calendar and prioritizing what's really important.
If not, life will prioritize for you. The whirlwind will prioritize what's important in your life, and life will drag you, instead of you directing where it should go. And that's really important.
And once you can commit to saying, “you know what, community is one of the highest values for me, because God made us in community, for community.” I mean, there's nothing- like, that's the unique design of humanity, then I'm going to say, “this is fundamental to who we are as people”. Then I'm going to say, “I cannot, and we cannot, become all that God has invited us to be without the help and the support and the encouragement of the very community God has given me.” Then we would say, “okay, let us prioritize, this is a high value in my discipleship, in my formational journey to Christlikeness.”
[15:16]
I love that. I think we can all agree that friendships are important, and it's just hard to prioritize community when you have like, especially as a young parent, kids, and then there's work, and then etc, etc, etc, you can- the list goes on and on.
So I would love to hear from you, David, what are some really tactical and practical ways that you would recommend someone to prioritize community?
Yeah, so a couple things that I'll share that I've done. Number one is, I've blocked off every Tuesday from 7 to 10 p.m., and I told my wife and my family, unless there is a family emergency, I'm going to give this time, again getting permission from my wife and my kids, and saying, hey, like, this time is I need to continue to build my own community, and this is a priority for me.
So that's been a practical thing, like, literally blocking off a section of your calendar, and it's a weekly repeated pattern so that everybody knows, even at our church, that they can't schedule a meeting with me during that time, because I also need community.
[16:23]
See, that's the thing about pastors and leaders. And again, I'm not speaking from a judgmental or kind of from a place of condemnation, but I empathize, because just because we as leaders pastors and leaders, just because we are around community, and we are building community, it doesn't mean that we have community.
This is why pastors and leaders are often lonely, as well. Then, and hence why so many pastors and leaders, they don't know what to do, and they end up getting into bad and habits and coping mechanisms behind the scenes in their secret places.
And I've been part of that journey, as well. So this is not to shame you, whether that's gaming, pornography, shopping, or just endless watching, we distract ourselves in the pain of loneliness, right?
And many leaders feel that, and so there's an invitation to take our own communities seriously. That just because we work on Sunday doesn't mean that we necessarily have our own people, as well.
So again, just the fact on- Yeah, I was just talking to someone about how one of the highest hits on a pastor's job search engine is on Sunday night and Monday morning. And I wonder why, like, I wonder why that is, you know. I think there's many people, and there should be many reasons for that, but I think many pastors and leaders feel that way about their own loneliness and community.
[17:54]
So, not only just kind of blocking of the Tuesday nights on your own schedule, I think it's also really good, and I know I just talked about digital devices and sometimes how harmful that could be, but I think this is a great tool to also use to just text out who's available.
So like, I do this often, like I even in my workplace, I would just text few people and say, “Hey, like I have a few openings in my lunch or coffee, is anyone around?” And just again beginning to have these these rhythms of asking, and more and more, it's helping me fight against my own shame of rejection.
Because, I think that's the big thing about initiating and priority. Because once you intentionalize, there's a sense in which somebody could say, “I don't have time for that.” And that rejection comes with deep sense of shame. And so once we get better at just asking and realizing, that's just a normal rhythm of humanity, I think we can grow our muscles of commitment and working through the pain of shame.
So good. That's such a good point that I don't think many of us think about is that barrier of “I don't want to be rejected, what if they keep saying no,” or that “they're busy,” and it’s that inside insecurity that's holding us back from even trying to reach out.
And I think another thing that, you know, as you're talking, especially, you know, from someone formally in ministry, I can totally see how you can do all the “right” things on the outside, but not really have life-giving or, you know, accountable community.
[19:30]
And I think that leads me into the next point. Another one of your practices you talk about is accountability. And I just wanna- I wanna unpack this, because I do think accountability is almost like a taboo word in our society. We don't like it. We don't like talk about it or thinking about it. We'd rather stay away from it. Some people don't even know, you know, what is it really mean? Like what is accountability and first place? And why is important?
So can you talk a little bit about that? Like why did you include accountability as one of the practices?
Yeah. Phew, so much to talk about. Okay, so I hear- thanks for asking that. So, accountability is my final and fifth practice. And in the reason why priority is my first practice is that all relationships and all communities are first built on commitment towards one another, right?
I mean, think about marriage, where you start with commitment for one another. And so priority’s first, and accountability is the final component of building a healthy, Christ-centered friendship and community.
[20:30]
The reason why accountability is at the end is because if you do accountability first, which many well-meaning Christians do, right, in the name of the Bible, in the name of Jesus, like before I even know your story, or your name, or your own context, I just call you out.
And that's what I would call, friends, spiritual abuse. And this is important, because if accountability is done at the end, if I go through all the practices of committing to one another and supporting and caring for one another, then when I call you out or challenge you, and, you know that I'm with you.
Like, I know you by name, and I know your history, your patterns, and rhythms, and I'm for you and not against you. And so, accountability, as hard as it still is, I'm on your side, as I'm calling you out.
Oftentimes, leaders when they get irritated angry on stage, or when they're doing accountability, often, if you see a sense of irritation, it's mainly because it's unfolding their own agenda in your life, or their own church agenda over your life, than actually caring for that person.
True accountability, the way I define it in the book, is helping that other person become all that God longs them to be. And it's about that person, not your agenda, not your frustration because they're late to your meeting or whatever, right?
And so it's really about the purpose of joining with God's Spirit and what God's Spirit is doing in their lives and discerning that through.
This is why accountability’s at the end, not the first. Accountability is still difficult to do, because I think we have bad forms of accountability.
So, let me just pause and say if you've been manipulated or abused in the past, and you've been hurt by church leaders in their own agenda, I just want to say as a church leader, we're sorry. I don't represent the entire Christendom or anything, but I'm sorry, because it happens too often. And we need to get better. And if you and I, and if we, and if there's any church leaders listening, we just need to get better at doing accountability.
But and also, just because we've seen many bad forms of it, I still didn't want to shy away from accountability, because if we're trying to build not just a fun community, but if we're trying to build a community that's built on the very essence of that we are here to build disciples to become more and more like Jesus, at the end of- we're building a Christ-centered community, then accountability has to still happen at the end of the day.
And we, as this young generation, and I don't know if I'm young now, but maybe I’ll include myself there (You’re pretty young), that we hate the notion of authority. This is why we hate any decisions that's made by the city, the government, church leaders, and so we just don't like anything- We don't like being told what to do.
And so accountability, no matter how good it may be, it comes off really harsh towards us, and there's an invitation for us to learn to surrender and submit, which are trigger words in our culture today, but it's very much a biblical principle in forming real community.
Without submission, right, again, like I submit to Christ, and we learn to submit to one another in that we build the very kinds of community where it's not” my agenda over your life,” but we're listening to God and listening to one another, and that is what true Christ-centered community’s all about.
Wow, there is so much to unpack there, David. Thanks for just sharing your definition of accountability.
[24:20]
And we'd love to hear what are some good examples of accountability? And how would, how would even someone bring that topic to someone? Like how- it's so awkward. Like, you can't say something like, oh, “you're like, struggling, I see that you're struggling with porn,” or, “you look like you're unfaithful with finances,” or anything like that. It's just so awkward.
So how would you approach that? And what is a good example of accountability?
One of the first things is, one of the things that trigger me is when people assume things about me. And in marriage, like, right, like, with my wife, like, when I assume certain things, instead of assuming, I think our posture should be curiosity, right?
Like, “hey, like I'm not sure if this may be correct, but I have noticed, or I've seen in the last few conversations, the way you talk about your boss, or the way you talk about this church, I see a little bit of kind of a critical spirit, or gossiping, but I don't want to assume anything. Was that a fair assessment of you?” Right?
Like, so again, holding it with curiosity, with openness, I think is really important. That posture is fundamental, because if not, we're coming in, like, strong, right? Like, “this is what you've done, and you are x, y, z, and so I'm here to confront you.”
Always we have to give them the benefit of the doubt, because we have our own blind spots, as well. I mean, Jesus talks about that. And so that's number one.
And number two is instead of saying, “here is what you should do,” right? Which I've done many times as a pastor, “this is what you should do.” I think the quite conversation and the question should be, “what do you think God might be inviting you to consider?”
When you do that, when you ask it in that way, then it makes it more about their relationship with God and makes, and it makes them more about what the Spirit of God is leading and trying to speak in their own lives and helps them to maybe pause, listen, and discern to God's movements, instead of your own human frustration of our friendship, or of our marriage, or whatever, the communities that you/we may be part of. And bringing God into accountability's really important.
And so, say, “what God might be, maybe inviting you to consider in this season,” is a wonderful way to make it Christ-centered, instead of accusational.
[26:57]
That reminds me of one of my good friends, Paul who is pretty much like a - who you know, actually, was my best man of my wedding, like I said, last time when we talked offline - but he reminds me of good accountability partner and buddy, where he call all that stuff. Like, for example, when I was searching for jobs, and I sent them something. He’d be like, “That's so random, Alex,” or, “This does not look like you,” or, “I don't see you doing this.” I mean that's a silly example, but I feel like that's a good, also, a good example of accountability, just sharing the honest and hard truth, but in a very loving way and fighting for your highest possible good.
He didn't say, like, “that's so random,” like, a disdaining way, I think. Because you already have to close trusted friendship, you know that everything he says is for your good. Just like you said, David, I think a lot of people have been hurt, and we've experienced this, too, even ourselves when people who don't know our situation, who don't know who we are, like make assumptions like, “oh, you should do this, you should do that.” And it's like, but “you don't know me” and, you're doing that for maybe your own agenda, right? So, I do think that is why it's so contentious for people. But just like you said, it doesn't mean we should shy away from it. We should keep pursuing healthy and good, godly accountability.
[28:23]
Totally. Here's what I've noticed in the patterns of Christendom, is that most people either choose to be more loving or grace, or truth-filled, right? And Jesus came both in grace and truth, like he did not shy away from one or the other. He held both of them in equal power, and I think we have a tendency, many Christians are just to do one, right?
So the question that I ask is, are you more of a grace person, or are you more of a truth person? But the real conversation is that Jesus is inviting us to do to both really well.
Yeah, Jesus is the perfect example of that and even like asking questions, I think there's a stat that's like majority of the questions that got asked to Jesus, he responded with more questions. So instead of just telling people “do this, do this,” he's helping them to process and reflect just like, you know, a coach, rather than like a dictator, you know.
You were talking about, you know, a lot of people treat friendships almost like, self-serving or transactional. It reminds me of even, like, a lot of people look at marriage, like, “oh, marriage is a vehicle to make myself happy.” And so when you're no longer happy in marriage, that's why we see such a high divorce rate. Rather than seeing marriages of vehicle to glorify God ,to refine one another, and be sharpened even yourself, right?
And so, I think with friendships, that is often the case, where people are like, “oh, friendships are to serve me and to make me happy. And if I don't have fun with this person anymore, I'm just gonna, like, leave them behind.”
At the same time, we've talked about this, too, when you grow, and you change, and life stages change, maybe you get married, maybe you move to another state, like friendships also evolve.
[29:52]
And so, can you just talk a little bit about that tension? Because I think a lot of people wrestle with that, and us included, like, how do you know when to let some friendships go, versus really fight and just be more adamant about keeping some?
Yeah, so I think there are three major categories. And it requires a lot of prayer. And so, here's what I what I mean by that.
There are friends where I think God is inviting you to, maybe in this season or for forever, just kind of move on and let go, because it's a toxic relationship. It's a codependent relationship, or the friendship is causing you to have a significant moral decline, right? They're a bad influence, right, bad company.
And so there are friendships where you're like, I'm not sure if this is the right invitation for my life. And so there are friendships where you need to pray and say, I think it's- we need to end for the right reasons. So this is why you need a lot of prayer and discernment. So there's that one group.
And then there's another group where, it's like, there's a mutual benefit and blessing, and support and encouragement, prayer, and you should delight in that. And I think the mutual care and support and joys that are shared are one of the greatest gifts that God has given to humanity, right?
I think there's a line, and I'm butchering it a little bit, right, like maybe it was Tim Keller, but someone said where, you know, good friends are God's way of saying sorry for the bad parents, your bad family you've had. As funny as that may sound, right, there's a blessing in mutual blessing of good friends.
And then, I think there are also a third group of friends, which is- it's a one-way from your side, like you are pouring in, and there's nothing that's happening on their end to you. They suck the life out of you, and it's like, you're just ministry to them.
If God is asking you to stay, and there is no mutual benefit, but you are there to encourage to support and to even carry their burdens, and it's a call upon your life to be a good faithful friend to and be a stable reliable friend to them during this rocky season in their lives, and it's only one-way, I think you should stay and commit.
And so these- understanding that you have these three buckets, or three categories of friendship, and having enough prayer to understand which ones to let go, which ones are the joys of your life, and which ones are almost your ministries, putting them in kind of categories to get yourself not too much in bitterness, right? To kind of identify where they are, I think, is helpful, so that you have the right kinds of, again, expectations, I guess. That's a fair way of saying it.
[32:52]
So good. It just reveals, I think, the theme that we've been seeing in all the conversations we've been having so far on this podcast and the importance of having that relationship with God.
Because if you don't know what to do in these- There's many gray areas, right, like whether it's friendships, or jobs, or all these decisions, and like, I think so many people just default based on our feelings, like, whatever feels good, whatever makes me happy, I'll just do that - but you're right, like, it takes discernment and prayer and reflection to know, okay, what, you know, tier or what level of friendship is God calling me to treat this one? Is it more my outer circle? Or is it really like my closer circle?
Just like Jesus had 12 disciples, he didn't have 12 thousand close disciples. But he also, at the same time, loved everybody. So yeah. Thanks for just addressing that tension. because I think a lot of people do struggle with it.
Yeah. Anything you would add, David, like what are some actionable steps that people can walk away with after listening to this episode to really grow and take steps for finding the community, or building the community, that God has for them?
[34:05]
Yeah. So, and this is why, maybe this is the right time to talk about the five practices in order, so that they can- and that's the real actionable step.
So once you have- once you prioritize, and you show up, and you commit, the second thing is chemistry: that you have to build similar interests and passions, and build that through a lot of eating and laughter and shared life experiences, you build that chemistry. So, the second one is chemistry.
And then, the third practice is vulnerability, and I think before you get to vulnerable accountability, to open up your life. And if that's something that you haven't done, the invitation is to lower our guards a little bit, lower our walls, to allow people to see us for who we are. So vulnerability is really the third practice in which we begin to build deeper- We move from shallow conversations to deeper waters of conversation.
And once we're vulnerable, we get to the fourth practice, which is empathy: that you're able to support and empathize and encourage and care for one another.
And as you do those four, then I believe that when you get to accountability, right, then you already, like, you've done all that, right? “I'm with you. I'm praying for you. I share my life, and you've shared my life, and I know you.”
And these practices have got me to where I am. So now I can say, “Hey friend, like, I see this in you, and I believe that's not the right direction for God's invitation over your life. And so I want you to reconsider that.”
I think there's- I think those practices help shape the bonding of community and friendship, so that you can get to that fifth practice, which is accountability, and I talk more about it in detail in the book. But for now, those are the five kind of practices.
[35:48]
I think one key action step that people can all take is to buy your book, and to read it, because that's, yeah, that's the ultimate action step. But yeah, I totally agree. There's so much in all of those elements, and it's easy for all of us to want a quick fix of like, “oh yay, I'll just do this one quick thing, and then I'll automatically have great relationships,” but it takes time, it takes intentionality, it takes effort. And it takes an open mind to really learn and humble ourselves to be like, “Okay, maybe I have things I need to work on. So how can I invite God in and show me how to be the kind of friend that I'm looking for,” right?
Few more things on that is, number one is to be really practical here: if, like, there might be someone, as you're listening, that God is bringing to your mind. That's the person that you should call right after this podcast. Who might be, like, God just kind of bringing to the surface?
It might be an old friend that you've lost touch, right? It could be your friend that you already hang out often. Or it could be somebody in your church community or small group, like, who is God bringing or God highlighting in your life in this season, and just give them a ping and say, “Hey, let's grab coffee together, I’d love to be more intentional.” I think that's a beautiful way to start.
Another thing that I think is really important is to reflect upon is: how do I actually cope with my loneliness? And so, this is really important for all of us, like, what are some of the ways in which that we are distracting ourselves?
So, we're getting busy at work, or watching this, or we're addicted to alcohol, or pornography, What are we using to be a substitute for real community, right? And what are some of the things that the world is saying: “join this, join that, that's going to give you the satisfaction and the longing of your soul,” but it's all a lie.
You get there, and it does not leave you more satisfied. It does not give you the deep community that you're longing for.
And so, how am I, and how do we, cope with our own pain, and is there a better invitation? And is there a greater invitation from the Lord in this season? And I think those are really important.
And then, lastly, I think this is the self-awareness piece that I'm talking about, like, how do I engage with community and people? Am I more aggressive type, am I more avoidant, withdrawing type, right? Am I more of a people pleaser, accommodating type, right? Am I more of an anxious type?
And so whatever the type you may be, and this is why personality theories and understanding your own your family of your origin and trauma and history is important, because you might already have a natural way you connect or disconnect with people, and having that awareness is really important.
And so I tend to always, like, withdraw, and that was something I had to come to realization like, “Oh, that's my natural default human broken tendency: I like to just live my life alone.” And so kind of learning your own patterns and rhythms of how you engage with people might be a great way to ask God, to say “God, would you help me? This is kind of the person I am. Would you strengthen me? Would you empower me?” And this is why it's so important to invite God into that process.
[39:16]
Yeah. I feel like even if you're wired a certain way, that doesn't also- it doesn't mean that God made a mistake on you. If you're like wired to be more introverted like myself or extroverted, there's no right or wrong, but it's just adapting to how did God wire you, and how can you use that to build community and find and build real friendships as an adult? So thanks for sharing that, David.
Totally. And it's also not a- you cannot use that as an excuse to not build community, right? “Because I'm a, God wired me as an incredible introvert, therefore, I don't really-” right? And no, it's like you- I think you should lean into your own wiring, but in that, it cannot be an excuse for not having community, but finding a unique way in your own personality to build a community that God longs for you.
So well-said and well-put. So thanks again for taking the time, David, to just share, there's so much more we can go into, we'll probably have to have you back on to talk about this more, as as people who want to be earnest and honest about loving others, while also being self-aware about what is the right thing, what does God want me to do here?
[40:27]
So anyway, we’ll definitely continue this conversation, but in the meantime, what are you are you willing to share, is there anything you're working on, any next projects that are coming up? And also, how can people find you if they want to connect with you?
Yeah. You could just find me on Instagram and on my website, I think that would be available here through you guys. And yeah, explore my book Made to Belong, and I’d love to hear your thoughts on that. And in terms of a next project, I think my real next project is, I'm kind of the type where I just move on from one thing to another, and I think in this season God is really saying I want to help other churches and communities and small group leaders to build the community that we're all longing for: deep, meaningful, right? We don't want any more shallow conversations, I think we're tired of shallow communities, and so if you are a leader listening and want to have some conversations around it, or if any of this stuff is helpful, I’d love to love to learn together and bounce off ideas.
Well, thanks again. David, we loved having you on. And we hope that our listeners, whoever's watching and listening, that this conversation really encourages you today to pursue the community that God desires for you.
[41:37]
Well, thanks so much guys for tuning into another episode. We really hope that it encourages you and gave you wisdom and ideas on how to find and cultivate deep meaningful relationships in a world that's trying to isolate and divide us so much.
And actually next week, we're going to be going even deeper into this topic from a personal angle, not just an intellectual one, and we're so excited because Alex, and his friend, Paul whom you've heard about - if you've been following along with our podcasts, you've heard his name mentioned, I think three out of four episodes now, Paul is such a great guy, and him and Alex have a beautiful friendship and brotherhood, and I really feel like Asian Americans, especially as men for them, we don't talk about this enough.
Like what does it mean to be really intentional in our friendships and prayerful and God-centered, and so make sure you tune back next week, because we're so excited to finally have Paul on. You can finally meet him and hear from him. Not just hear about him.
And in the meantime, if this podcast encouraged you in any way, please, please consider leaving a rating and review. It literally takes only a few seconds, but it makes a world of a difference to help us reach more people, so that they can also live the faith-fuelled lives that God has designed for them.
So yeah, we can't wait to see you back next week, and we'll see you then.
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