Episode 5: What Makes A God-Centered Friendship? (Our Personal Journey) - Paul Sohn & Alex Tran
We often talk about God-centered relationships in terms of dating and marriage… but tend to undermine the importance and value of God-centered FRIENDSHIPS…
…which are essential for our mental, emotional, spiritual, and holistic health and thriving (and yet seem to be hard to find!).
Today, we have a VERY special episode in store for you.
As a friend, spiritual brother, and mentor to Alex, Paul Sohn has been a constant source of encouragement, challenge, and accountability in Alex's life.
In this episode, we share an intimate conversation with Alex and Paul. Join us as they reflect on their friendship and peel back the layers on how to cultivate friendships that spur each other on in faith - despite physical distance and life’s transitions.
If you're stuck feeling lonely or are just curious about how to have deep, meaningful relationships, we hope this heartfelt conversation about the beauty and power of God-centered friendships fuels you to take tangible steps in that direction.
TOPICS:
0:00 - Intro
1:58 - How Alex & Paul met & became friends
6:53 - Paul's role in Alex & Grace's dating & marriage journey
10:16 - How do you lovingly challenge a friend with hard truth?
15:35 - How Paul navigated Alex making decisions he felt unsure about
19:58 - How do you stay close friends despite physical distance and life transitions?
28:16 - Key traits in a friendship that enable vulnerability
34:33 - Practical tips to have God-centered friendships
42:41 - The often-overlooked power of godly friendships
45:38 - The huge impact Paul & Alex’s friendship has had on each other
48:37 - An exciting announcement! (And preview of our next episode!)
ABOUT OUR GUEST:
Paul Sohn is passionate about equipping Christians to live out their calling, drawing upon his experience as a 1.5-generation Korean-Canadian-American to build bridges between people and culture.
He's the founder of QARA, a ministry raising up the next generation of leaders, and author of Quarter-Life Calling (2016) and Millennials Calling (2019).
He was the Director of the Strategic Career Initiative at Biola's business school, named one of the Top 33 under 33 Christian Millennials to Follow in 2014, and received the John C. Maxwell Leadership Award in 2016.
Paul is husband to his God-fearing wife, Saehim, and new father to his daughter, Peace. Connect with him on Instagram: @pauljsohn.
Transcript
[0:00]
This was one of the questions that you were gonna ask, right? “How has God used your friendship to impact you?”
Um…
...
We gotta edit this out. (You got this.) I’m trying not to cry, but um…
All right... Well, welcome back everyone to the podcast! We're so thrilled you guys are here. We have a very, very special episode for you today.
We actually have one of our very good friends talking about an area of experience and personal relationship that he has with Alex. His name is Paul Sohn, and we have had the privilege of knowing him, actually, Alex has known him for many years now, we'll get into how they know each other, and I'll actually be facilitating this conversation between Alex and Paul.
And so today's topic is really just unpacking what a God-centered friendship may look like. I think a lot of, you know, our culture now we're losing that sense of connectivity and friendship and especially amongst men, we're seeing the declining rates, increasingly declining rates of connectedness and friendship, and it's leading to a lot of mental health issues, as well.
So today we just want to talk about what it looks like, you know, to have this God-centered friendship. And we hope it encourages you to also pursue friendships like this.
So yeah, welcome to the podcast, Paul!
Well, thanks for having me. I'm super excited to be part of this great podcast. So thanks for having me.
Yeah, of course, thanks for being here. Also side note, Paul and his wife just had a baby and they're in a midst of a crazy transition right now. So it means a lot that he's taking the time out of this season to be with us.
[1:58]
Let's start off, maybe Alex can actually start, just talking about how did your friendship with Paul even start, where did you guys meet, what were your first impressions?
Yeah, so we met in 2015, if I'm correct. And I remember I was fresh out of college, and I had this eager fervor to integrate my faith and work. And I was super naive, but I also wanted to grow just as a Christian as someone in the corporate world and really, I was trying to figure out how to be a Christian in the business world.
And so I was literally Googling up people to get mentorship from, to get coaching from, and I stumbled upon Paul. And you had a- I think he was on some featured website, but I reached out to him, I emailed him, and I think Paul still has that email.
But that's- so our relationship really started more as a client. And throughout the last, I would say throughout, maybe like a year or so, we had this like coaching-client relationship. That's essentially how we met, just as clients.
My first impression of Paul was: this guy, he has a sense of authority, almost. He was kind of like the big brother I never had.
He talked with conviction, and he challenged me, and I rarely get challenged by people. But when Paul would challenge me in our client-coaching conversations, I would just be very taken aback and just surprised honestly about the way that he coaches me.
So I would say, I've always had the most, the utmost respect for Paul, even in 2015, up till now, and yeah.
You have a really good search engine skills to find someone like that. And then how, can you talk a little bit- you mentioned, you were client and coach, but how did that become, how did you become friends?
I don't know. Paul, what would you say to that?
Yeah, I, you know, that's a great, you know, way to kind of describe kind of how we developed our relationship, Alex. And I think for me personally, I think, you know, necause we started more in a professional, kind of formal, kind of a type of relationship, you know, it's always tricky especially when you are in that relationship to transition into another type of relationship.
So for me, as we were getting to know a lot more and deeper, I think, personally, when our kind of coaching sessions ended, I personally started praying to God. And God started highlighting Alex in my life and just saying like, I need to be a brother to him.
I need to be someone who is not just ending a transactional relationship, but someone that I would… just be someone that I could go after and pursue a deeper relationship that is not bound by some sort of a, you know, however many months of coaching sessions, we have or… all of that. So as I was praying to God, I felt like, okay, that's something God wanted me to do.
So that's when I think things started to shift a little more, just in my mind and how I approach Alex, the type of things that we would do, you know, we would hang out a lot more after that, to play basketball or we would, you know, spend a lot of time just informally. And I think that was kind of a big shift for me.
Wow, I love that you mentioned you were like prayerful about it because it made me think, I think, oftentimes, we're powerful about, you know, dating and romantic relationships. But when it comes to friendships, I think most people, we just think of, you know, “oh, who's fun to hang out with or who's, you know, more beneficial for my life?”
But the fact that you were prayerful and sensed God, like, leading you to pour in and invest in this friendship, I feel like a lot of people could be helped by that when they think of their friendships more as, you know, not just receiving and taking, but what can they give, and how can they disciple, invest in others?
[6:53]
One quick fun fact I did wanna mention, because when you talked about how you became more of a brother to Alex, I definitely was struck by that. When I first met Alex, I think Paul was the first friend of his that I had met. We did like this virtual, uh… it wasn't an interview, but it kind of a little bit felt like it.
But it was just so funny because I think Alex wanted Paul, out of all people, Paul was the one to vet, you know, is this girl okay? Is she legit? Is she good for me?
And do you want to talk about how Paul was one of the reasons why we got together- or how we got together?
Yeah. Yeah, for more context. When we first met, I was living in L.A., and Paul was living in, I believe, San Diego. So they’re about two hours apart. But just with so many life transitions moving us all over the place, there was a segment of our lives where we intersected and we lived in Orange County, where I'm originally from and Paul now currently lives there.
And that was a very special time for me personally, and when I met Grace- I forgot, what was your question? But- Like how, just talk about Paul's role and how we actually- we wouldn't be married today if it wasn’t for Paul.
Oh yes, yes, sorry I was going on a tangent. (Reminiscing) I was just reminiscing, having one of those moments.
I remember, like I was telling Paul about this girl who I met online, and she's from Australia (living in Australia), sorry, she was living in Australia. And I just wanted a second opinion, because, you know, like when you're in love, you're so captivated and your logical- your sense of logic just is very distorted. (Yeah.)
And so, I was telling telling Paul about this girl, and I remember driving in his car, and we were just having this conversation. I still remember, it was in the evening, we were driving in Irvine, and I remember you telling me- not verbatim, but the gist of it was: if you're serious about this girl, you have to pursue her.
And I was like, wow, okay, well I'm in Orange County. She lives in Australia. How do I pursue her?
And so that's started to- that started the process of me buying a ticket to go to Australia to meet Grace for the first time.
And yeah, I mean, fast forward to now, it all worked out, but thanks to Paul, he was definitely the was it like the spark that lit the fire.
Yeah, and it wasn't just the beginning, too. I think Paul, from what I've heard from Alex, like throughout the whole journey of, like, dating and, like, being engaged, I think, like, you consistently consulted Paul, his thoughts and, you know, his input and wisdom.
[10:16]
And so Paul, if I could just ask you from your perspective, you know, when Alex comes to you, with these, like, questions and wants advice, how do you, you know- because I think a lot of people struggle with like, lovingly challenging, like, calling things out in people (and we talked about this actually in another interview about friendship) like, it's hard to find friends who you can just trust their opinion, without their own biases, without their own insecurities.
So, like, what goes through your mind about how to lovingly challenge and support, Alex, or anybody with loving truth the way that they need to hear, even if it might be like hard sometimes?
Yeah, that's good. I think for me, just getting to know Alex more helped, right? So understanding him not just as someone who has, you know, like on a LinkedIn profile, just getting him there. But also knowing him, his story, his strengths and weaknesses, all of that, right? And being able to have greater understanding of who Alex is more holistically I think helped me to just think about, okay, maybe, as a friend, what can I bring that Alex doesn't have, as he's making one of the most important decisions of life. How can I be a support in that sense, right?
So for me, as kind of his, you know, older, bigger brother, I felt like okay, you know, he met this girl on Facebook, been doing these 15-minute voice connections, and I'm like, okay, I'm very curious: who is this person, you know? (Sounds very suspicious.) So I was like, okay, you know, this is someone that I’ve been really wanting to know more about and like, what's your thought process?
So a lot of times, it was just me asking a lot of questions about, like, okay, you know, what is your definition or even your standard of who's the right person, right? And I think, oftentimes, a lot of those things, we don't really articulate, we just kind of have a sixth sense, maybe, of like, oh, I think this is the right person, and for me, I'm just like trying to clarify: is that your hormones, or is that part of your your, like, you know, sense of like- (It definitely hormones in the beginning)
That plays a big part for sure. But like, what is driving you to, to want to pursue this relationship? So I think that's where I was just trying to figure that out as a friend, so that just he wouldn't make a decision that he would regret later on.
What helps you, like, I'm thinking of- those are really good examples. I'm thinking of instances where… has there been a time where you just disagreed with Alex's approach? Like maybe you've asked some questions, and it turns out like, you know, what he's thinking or what he wants to do, you don't agree with, and you're not sure like how to, like, push back, but like, firmly, but with love? How have you kind of handled that?
Because I think we talk about this a lot, you know, we have friends who we’re like, oh, should we say something about, you know, we don't think that's the best for them? But we don't want them to be feel hurt and offended and then, you know, lose our friendship. So, how have you kind of approached that?
No, that's really yeah, important. I think it also depends on case by case, person by person. So first of all, I think what I try to do is to really let Alex know, or anyone else know, that, like, what I'm sharing is out of my deep love for that person.
It's not to somehow be their God, or try to control that person, but it's just to be like, okay, here's some food for thought based on some of the things that you're thinking about.
So, I don't know, like, I think for me, Alex, can't think of any specific example around kind of your- his relationship with you in the beginning, but when Alex said, “I just bought a ticket and I'm gonna be going to Australia,” I was like, wow, like, he really you know pulled the plug in, he was able to do that.
So I don't know if I necessarily disagreed with that, but I was like, okay, wow, that's very different than the Alex I have known, in the sense that he's really taking that next step, and putting his money, his time, his investment into this.
So in that sense, I was like, okay, wow, like I was able to see how serious Alex was about this, even not knowing how all of this relationship was going to turn out.
So yeah, I think I really respected that, and I just was trying to then help him, you know, what's your plan? Game plan? When you get there, you only have, you know, X amount of time and days there. Like, how do you plan to spend your time? And what do you plan to do?
So that, I think, was just a few of the questions that I was trying to you know, process with Alex. (Yeah.)
[15:35]
Were there any, besides dating and eventually marrying Grace, were there any - this is so vulnerable, but - were there any decisions that I made that you disagreed with or- but I did it anyways?
When I think about, you said, oh you want to actually move up to the Bay Area, I remember having a conversation. And okay, so you had a job offer, and then you're like, okay I want to move up, and I think one big reason is because, you know, Grace was gonna actually move back to the Bay Area. But that's, at the same time, you didn't really have a lot of your own network there. You've kind of established your place in Orange County. So, a lot of it was new.
And I think at that point, for me, I was worried, that okay, like you had a number of- series of other jobs in the last few years at that point. So what if you actually do go do the Bay Area, and then you somehow be like, okay, I don't like this job again, or this is not the right fit, and then you end up, like, quitting or, and then what happens, right?
So that's where I felt like, okay, I would want to make sure that you’re making the decision that you will not regret. And as a friend, I want you to thrive, I want you to succeed.
So I think those were some questions that I had. But again, like, for me, because I don't know everything as well, I think the only thing I could really do is like, to pray with you in this whole, this kind of discernment process, and to make sure like: are you really operating out of pure motivation? Are you operating out of a sense of like, feeling this is God’s prompting? How much of it’s you, right, out of your own flesh?
So I think that's the part where I was just trying to process together and personally, as a friend, I enjoyed your company so much, so it was a big loss for me for you to go up. But I also knew at the same time, that God was going to lead you, God has been guiding your life and I was able to see that.
So, I remember, I think one of the the times after, I think we played basketball near my house, I remember like, praying for you. (Of course I won.) Yeah, sometimes you win, sometimes I win. Yeah, we've been going back and forth, right?
But, yeah, I remember praying, and just like, almost saying, “Hey God, I really pray that, God you would send, you know, godly people around Alex's life. Whether it's through Grace, or through others.”
And it's been amazing, honestly, to see the last, what, four years, how God has fulfilled that. And you have so many good friends, godly people that you have surrounded yourself with, whether it's mentors or peers, and it's amazing, because, you know, you started basically with zero. And God has faithfully, you know, put all these amazing people in your lives. So for me, after all these years, I could definitely see God's faithfulness in them.
Wow, that is beautiful. I think, just to- as I'm hearing you talk about this, Paul, t just really stands out to me how like, this is the mark of a good friend, is someone who wants the best for the other person, you know, out of love, out of, I truly want that person to thrive and live out the calling that God has for them.
But you're also not, like, controlling them. I think sometimes people have this such a strong desire of like, this is the right way, if you don't do this, you're doing it wrong. And then they get like, almost like angry, or judgmental, you know, because you’re not doing it a certain way, but I love how you were talking about, you know, God is leading Alex, God is in his journey, and you're not, you know, the one responsible for his- or he doesn't need to do things the way that you think is, right, because God is with him, and your role really is just to help him process and reflect and kind of connect with what God is saying.
[19:58]
So you mentioned, you know, you guys have been through a lot of transitions in life and you just had a baby, you're in your own transition now. I wanted to ask, you know, besides this transparency you guys are able to have with each other, are there any other key traits or factors you feel like has played a part in helping you guys stay friends over the years, despite the distance - you're not even in the same location anymore - and also despite all the changes in life?
Well, I’ll answer that question a little bit differently. I think it's helpful to go through the evolution of our friendship on a timeline.
So, we talked about how we met as more of a professional setting. But I think from there, after the one-on-one coaching/client sessions, Paul actually invited me to join like, in parentheses, Christian leadership cohort for one year called GiANT Worldwide.
And Paul was, to translate, like my small group leader, almost. And so we really started to develop more of a friendship in that one-year program, where we would be really honest, not only me and him, but just everyone in our cohort, in our small group, and so that really helped to kickstart things.
And then after that, I personally had a lot of transitions and failures, too, on the career side, just moving to various places. But one thing that, really helped us stay friends is just constant communication.
I tell him that I only download KakaoTalk just to talk to Paul. (What is KakaoTalk?) I’m not korean, so I won't do this justice, but it's like a Korean WhatsApp. Korean chat app.
So we've always been in constant communication, whether I am asking him questions or getting his thoughts on things, sending some videos and articles and, yeah, just making it a point- I don't like, schedule, like, text to check in on him, but it's just something that developed, and I think subconsciously, I always have Paul at the at the top of my mind when it comes to friends, which is why I consistently communicate with him.
But after being away from Southern California for a little bit, I felt like God wanted me to move back closer to home in Orange County, which is where we really intersected our lives together. And I think that was, like, I think our friendship got taken to another level there when we were able to spend more time in-person. Because for the most part, our friendship was more long-distance. But it was so sweet to be able to spend time with Paul in a single place.
So some things that we've done is, I remember, I would ask me, hey, do you want to play basketball? Or hey, do you want to do- you want to read the Word together? I thought that was a super wholesome. I've never had anyone do that before, but, we got to go to the Korean spa together and read the Word together, which is so funny, to- Bible studies at the Korean spa- we would play basketball together, I would go over to his place, and we’d just hang out and we would eat together a lot.
And I think what's really kept us friends is just the intentionality and honestly, the consistency and frequency, in which we met both online and in-person.
So, that was a truly special time for me. After Orange County, I felt God call me to the Bay Area, and obviously the distance from Southern California to NorCal is a lot greater. But again, I always had Paul on top of mind, and we would always text each other, call, we-
I would call him spontaneously, and he would call me spontaneously, too. And usually, we would pick up or text right away, which I find that very special. I don't think a lot of people do that.
But I think it's those types of small interactions that have helped us stay together, and those smaller interactions are actually really impactful in the big picture.
What would you say, Paul?
Yeah, I mean, like Alex shared, we did a lot of things. We did circuit training, as well. I don't know if you remember that.
Oh, I forgot about that. Oh, that was painful.
So, in many ways, we’d not just, like, have coffee just to meet up. But we, yeah, worked out together, we read the Word together. We spent a lot of time going to eat out and going to Yogurtland and enjoying yogurt ice cream.
Like, we did a lot of things together, which- generally, the more time you’re spending together the better you get to know that person on a more authentic basis, right?
And that's where I feel like we got to just spend a lot of time opening up ourselves. So the defense guard is getting lowered, and you're talking about life.
So a lot of times we, you know, end up our time in prayer, as well. And I think that's something, personally, I intentionally try to do, just because, yeah, I mean, we could have a great time, but that's not the whole purpose.
We really want to put Christ first, and a lot of times, whether we are reading the Word, or whether we are, you know, spending time together talking about some of the challenges happening on our life, you know, the best thing we could do for each other is pray.
So I think that's been a huge aspect in our relationship and yeah, I agree with everything that Alex has said about constant communication. I think, yeah, I mean, we shouldn't be able to just schedule each other’s time, like, hey can I call you?
I mean, it depends on where you are in the spectrum of friendship, but I think for Alex and I, we are at a point where we're like, hey, we can just call each other up and talk in a very honest, vulnerable way. And we're able to listen and truly care for each other. So, I love how God has helped us to really help us grow in that area.
Yeah, I remember, speaking of just vulnerability, I mean, this is just one of many examples, but I remember on a, on a Friday night, and this was before I met Grace, but on a Friday night we were, I was hanging out at your place in Irvine, and we reading the Word together, and this night we got especially vulnerable, and you asked me how am I doing with lust?
Which is, I don't know if you remember that, but I thought that was super uncomfortable to talk about, but it was also very much-needed and (refreshing), yeah, it was pretty refreshing. Because that's like, a hidden part of our lives. Especially as men, it's so hard to talk about. It's shameful, but God calls us to purity, and God calls us to call other people up to a higher level.
And so, I definitely think vulnerability is definitely a key. I've seen Paul in his darkest times, and he’s seen me in my darkest times. So yeah, just being able to share that means a lot.
Awww, Alex is getting emotional. I don't know if you can see on the camera.
But yeah, on the topic of vulnerability. I was actually just going to dive deeper into that, because I think that's a big theme I'm hearing in this conversation of, you know, being able to share anything, talk whenever you want about things you're struggling with, and give loving advice and and ask those hard questions from a loving place.
[28:16]
And I think a lot of people, and I'm thinking especially of men who will be listening to this, a lot of men have struggles opening up, right? I think women, we tend to just like talk more about inner inner stuff, but you know, there's pride, there's a pressure to just look good on the outside, and also keep things shallow, men and women.
So what would you guys say is, like, a way- or what in the friendship has helped you to practice that vulnerability, to be open with each other in that way? Because there's that phrase, I think it's like, “be honest with everyone but vulnerable with a few,” so, you know, how do you know, this person, how much should I, like, be vulnerable with with them about, if that makes sense?
Yeah, I think for, for me, just, Alex, one thing I really love about him is he's a very honest guy. Like, he's not, you know, a different person from private life, public life, you know, he’s very much the same guy. And even though it may be uncomfortable, he will try to open up and talk about it, right?
And I think that's what I really loved about Alex is, you know, as we talk about some of challenges that happen in all of life, that, you know, he's able to be in a posture of like, yeah, I want, I'm wanting to have deeper conversations. Sometimes you don't know how to navigate that, but I think, you know, Alex, that's one of his strengths, is he's able to do that.
And also, I think, part of what I appreciate about Alex is like, if I open up about something, or some of the challenges, like, I know, Alex is not there to judge, not there to condemn. He's really there to really listen and empathize and to be like, yeah, I understand, it's really hard.
That's what I expect from Alex, because we've known each other so much. Not like, oh, you know, how could you do that, Paul? Like, oh, you failed, like those words never came out of Alex.
So I think for me, I was a lot- It was a lot easier for me just to open up to Alex, as well. So I think, yeah, I think that- I think it's important that you kinda know the heart and posture of other person. And sometimes you don't know that. So maybe you have to take that initiative in the beginning, as well.
But because of that, I think we- our friendship is at a very different level than many other people because there- we get to share a lot of, yeah, deep, you know, struggles and challenges, obstacles, and things that happen in our life that's always not the things you would see on social media, right?
So, and, I know that Alex can be somebody that he will pray for me, he will truly care for me, you know, so I think those are important things that kind of come to my mind.
I totally forgot what was your question.
So in the zone, like, “keep affirming me, Paul.” My question was what aspects of your friendship allow you to feel that safety to be vulnerable, to share, when you know you don't want to be sharing all your inner stuff with everybody around you, but what about this friendship allows you to do that? And I think Paul, you know, he mentioned your empathy, you're non-judgmentalness, and also your honesty, too, as some of the key things, but what would you say either about Paul or just, like, this dynamic?
Yeah, I think it helped that we started off as more of a professional relationship, because it really set the tone like, when you go to someone, you need help. So, I'm already at a posture of humility, and I'm really willing to listen to anything and everything.
And I think for me, I just have a desire to learn. But I think one trait that really admire about Paul, and other people, as well, who I consider great friends, is just the ability to listen, to empathize.
But also, he's very affirming, and I think we started our relationship based on love instead of convenience. And I knew that whatever I did, whatever decision I did, whatever I was thinking, there was always love that was constant.
And so I already felt comfortable to come to Paul with any stupid question, any situation, to get his thoughts on it, to get his opinion. Usually people don't like being told what to do or being given opinions to, but for me, I don't care. I actually enjoy getting Paul's thoughts.
And so, yeah, number one is just his ability to listen, empathy, and also, I just felt loved and not judged. So, I would say the same characteristics he thinks of me, I think of him.
I love the mutual respect in this brotherhood. Yeah, the reason why I ask that is because it just reminds me again like with the parallel of, you know, people are so intentional and thoughtful around dating, like, oh there's these are the traits- These are the traits I'm looking for in a future spouse.
But again, we're not so thoughtful usually around the traits we're looking for in a godly friend, so we end up as a result, we end up just making friends out of convenience or like, oh, they're just fun to hang out with but we don't really spend the time to pinpoint, you know, what are the traits I'm looking for and praying for and looking in a person to really invest and build a close- cultivate a close relationship with, because you have a limited amount of energy and time, you can't do this with every single person you meet.
[34:33]
So that kind of brings me into a more practical question. I think a lot of people will be listening to this, and be like, wow, I want friendships like this. And I know we're always talking about we want more friendships like this, too.
So, what would you guys say is a practical step that people can take if they want this kind of friendship? ‘Cause you can't just manufacture, like, you can't just force, you know, you to meet somebody like this, you really gotta, you know, pray and be thoughtful around it. But what would you guys say is helpful for people to find God-centered friendships?
It's very challenging, especially in today's age where there's social media, right? Which really can make it sound like you're really connected with a lot of people, but can't go to that- the core of the person. It’s hard to go to the depths of that person in a platform like that. So, it's easy for us, and for many people, just to continue a very much of a shallow, kind of a superficial relationship.
I think someone who really wants to pursue a deep brotherhood, deep kind of connection with a fellow brother or sister, I think part of that is: are you willing to take initiative? You first have to take initiative.
A lot of times, we want to be the center of the world, and we're like, why, why don't you reach out to me? But like, part of our posture as a friend is like, I want to be like you, I want to grow with you. So it's the posture of Jesus, ultimately.
It's like, I'm here. I want to get to know you. So I want to have a meal with you, I want to hang out with you. And when you come with that posture of, like, I really like you as a friend, I really want to get to know you, I mean, most people will actually want that very much. They want to be seen, they want to be heard, they want to be known.
So for someone who actually takes that initiative, I think it's huge. I think it’s really, really important. So I think that that taking initiative aspect of it is really important in the beginning.
But also, prayer is a huge part as well, as we have shared. We continue have to pray for each other. And I think prayer makes our relationship a lot deeper. It's not grounded by some sort of a give-and-take type of relationship that our world operates, but it's based on, our, you know, on the Word of God, on our relationship with God as God's children, and ultimately, the reason why I love you is you are a brother in Christ.
So when you're meeting another fellow believer, you are connected in a family of God, so that, I think, is really important to understand, just theologically, because it's not just a give-and-take relationship.
So yeah, I think for, for me, I really try to go back to the Word of God and see how has Jesus modeled, what it means to be a good friend? And even though I can't live up to that standard, at least he gives me a great model of how I should act.
So those are things that I try to do to kind of grow even my friendship with others, including Alex, and others, because many times I will fail as a friend, but, you know, I have someone to look up and learn from.
Yeah, I'm just trying to draw some themes from my friendship with Paul and others. And I feel like, well, first, each of my friends, we met in so many different ways, and I feel like there's no like, “one right way” to meet a friend.
But, honestly, getting yourself out there, and just reaching out to people, and getting to know them, like, initiating is the first step.
I think where a lot of people struggle with is not necessarily meeting people, but more of, how do you discern who to pursue? Because there's so many people out there, and I'm just sort of processing this right now, but I feel like, for me, I have almost like a prioritization system in my head.
Like, these are like my top three to five friends, and I want to intentionally get to know them. It's not like a system I write down, but it's just like a mental system.
And I think in the earlier stages with my friendship with Paul, yeah, there was a lot of initiating. I forgot who made the first move, but- or who initiated more, but I do remember there was a period where we would ask each other, like how are you doing? Like, how you really doing? Or do you wanna go play ball? Or something like that. I think that consistent communication has helped a lot.
And then yeah, with just like deciding or choosing your friends, or how to make close friends, you kind of go through this process of like hanging out, and you kind of figure each other out, and you almost have- you do like a risk-benefit analysis of the person and this relationship to see if it's worth it.
I think I subconsciously did that with Paul, but I definitely felt like it was worth it, and I just, you know, continued to pursue it. I don't know that answers your question at all, but I hope that helps.
I think it's very honest. I like that you share that, because yeah, people, I think, we don't talk about this a lot in culture, so people just assume “oh, you just meet someone bam, you’re best friends.”
But I think you guys talking about the considerations, your thought process, what you're looking for in that person and how you evaluate, like, “Is it worth my time and investment?” That's very real. I think a lot of people, including us, are always struggling and and processing through that, right?
I think it's a constant life journey to pray for and seek out and want these kinds of friendships, especially if you move, and you're trying to find a new community, I think a lot of people struggle with that, especially.
So I just want to encourage anyone listening to know that this process that Paul and Alex are talking about, it's been what, like, five, seven, (eight) eight years in the making.
So, yeah, don't feel pressured to be like, oh, okay, after this podcast, I'm gonna go look for my, you know, God-centered friendship and it better happen in the next week, otherwise God's, like, not coming through. It really is a process.
And yeah, I think even for me, what I try to remember and encourage myself, too, is, you know, don't have expectations of like, “oh, like, if initiate this thing, they need to do something back for me,” I think that's a very transactional way of thinking of friendships.
Just like what Paul is saying, like, initiate and just seek out, like, how to give, how to invest in the right people, but yeah, Alex and I were just talking about this earlier, like when a lot of people have this thought of like, “oh, if they were really good friend,” or “if they really valued me, they would do this, this, this for me,” and it’s like all unspoken expectations and unmet expectations, that just creates… I don't know, that creates misery inside of you and and cuts you off from a potential friendship with them.
Anything you want to talk about in terms of friendship that you haven't mentioned in this conversation?
[42:41]
Yeah, I think, for me, just one of the biggest things about my friendship with Alex is it helped me to really see and experience God in powerful ways.
And I think that's one of the great benefits of godly friendship is (dang, you’re gonna make me cry) not only do I experience God through what God is doing in my personal life, but I get to see God through Alex and how God is working in and through him.
So one story, I'll just share is, to me, I still vividly remember, as Alex was in the process of, you know, pursuing Grace and really wanting to see, you know, is this really what, God, you have for me? Is this really, God, what you want for my life? And he was, you know, asking a lot of these big questions, that I actually suggested, hey, let's go to the Korean church, and go to our early morning service at 5 AM. (Oh, gosh, I do remember those days.)
Yeah, Alex would basically drive in the morning for half an hour, come to the church, don't even understand any word in Korean, but he's there, and just opening up his Bible. And I would give him actually the Scripture, and he would like read it, he would meditate on it, and then, the lights would turn off, and then they would be some, you know, Christian background music, and there would be a time of prayer and, you know, Alex would be praying.
And he did this for- not just once, he did it for a number of different times. And I was just like, wow, someone who doesn't even speak the language, but come very early in the morning and seek God like that.
And I really believe that God, you know, just really answered a lot of prayers that Alex was praying at the time. And ultimately, to see how both of you have met over the number of years, and now you're married, and to see how much Alex has grown, thanks to Grace and thanks to what God has done, like, as a friend, it's so amazing to see that.
Like, I get to be one of the first people that gets to share this beautiful story God has been writing in both of your life. And I think that's such a privilege, such a treat for me to be able to see and know that, wow, God is real. God is SO real. God is so good and faithful, and he is the one who has prepared the best person for each one of us, right?
So I think that's just one thing that I would highly encourage to anyone who really wants to dive into deeper and godly relationship is: your knowledge of God will increase significantly through your closest friends and how they experience God, as well. It will be so powerful in your personal growth in your life with God.
[45:38]
Wow. So good. Anything you would say?
Yeah, um, I think this was one of the questions that you were going to ask, right? “How has God used your friendship to impact you?”
Um…
…
We gotta edit this out. (You got this.) I’m trying not to cry, but um…
But, yeah, one of the things that you said that really impacted me was to be a man of the Word. And I think, yeah… Dang.
One thing that really helped, like God transformed me, was just one time - many times, actually - Paul just encouraged me to be a man of the Word. And I think, since then, I've been like, in the Word and studying it…
Yeah, you would mention like, Alex would tell me, Paul is totally reminding him like, the Word is sweeter than honey. And like I've seen, too, from a wife's perspective, Alex just diving more in love, falling more in love with God's Word and treasuring it, and you know, every day just, like, seeking God in his Word.
I feel like, yeah, could you agree that your love for God, your understanding of his Word, the impact that's had is also thanks to Paul’s encouragement?
Yeah, yeah, I definitely think so. I think prayer, as well, I think something that I cherish was just the times where we prayed together, and yeah, I just saw like, the importance of that, and how it transformed me and everyone around me, and yeah, I mean, in so many words, yes. God has definitely impacted me through our friendship.
I think there's a lot more Alex can say about this bit. It's okay. There's a lot of emotions right now.
I just want to thank you for opening up today and and sharing your thoughts and getting vulnerable with us.
Of course, it's my pleasure and yeah, it's just so cool to do this, in this kind of a way, so I appreciate you, Grace, for facilitating this conversation and yeah, it's such a blessing. So, thank you so much.
Yeah, happy to connect with anyone who wants to connect, talk about calling, talk about friendship, or any other matter. And I will open up myself for you.
Awesome. Thank you so much, Paul. Thanks, Alex.
Yes. Thanks, bro.
[48:37]
Well, thanks so much, guys, for tuning into another episode. We pray that it encourages you and blesses you and touches your heart. I know it definitely melted mine.
And yeah, our hope is just that it gives you a glimpse and a vision of what's possible. You know, so much of our culture advertises very shallow relationships, both friendships and romantic ones, and one of our goals here is to really push you and encourage you to pursue the kind of life that God desires for you, and part of that is not just having friends that you can hang out, with, chill with, have fun, which is great, we love those friendships, as well, but also friends that you can just talk, be really real with, and go deep and also spur each other in your faith.
It's kind of like if you're at a workout class and you're just, like, not motivated, you don't know what you're doing wrong. But when you see other people in the class doing it with you and cheering you on, and they can give you pointers as well, you can ask them questions, it's a little bit like that. Like, in community, we make each other stronger.
So, if you want practical ways on how to do this in your own life, you have two ways for you. One is there's a Reflect and Apply Guide that we make for every single episode. It’s totally free. You don't have to give us anything, not even your email address or personal details. It's linked in the description below. And we always include practical action steps and reflection questions and resources and prayer prompts, all the good things in those guides, to help you live out what we're talking about in each episode.
The second thing is we're SO excited to announce that we are soft launching our one-on-one consulting services! This is because we are hearing so many people talk about, you know, “I wanna grow in this area, but, like, how do I do it? And this is my situation.”
And we love doing that. Actually, Alex, one of his dreams is to someday have a counseling room where he can just take one-on-one's all day every day, and yeah, both of us just really have that heart to help people get unstuck from their problems and their struggles, and give you practical tools and action steps led by the Holy Spirit to finally get to breakthrough and finally just grow in that area.
So, if that's you, if you're like, I love this podcast, but I want to get like personal results, I want to see what this means for my own life, that is what is available for you. So go to our description below, you can find out more. There's also no pressure at all. This is just an invitation if you're interested, and our website is withthetrans.com if you want to find out more.
So yeah. Next week, we have another riveting episode on topic of MONEY. Enough said. It is very juicy, I'll just say that. Very vulnerable and personal as well, so yeah… stay tuned.
We'll see you guys back next week. Thanks again.
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