Episode 6: Worried About Money? (How to Navigate Financial Anxiety, F.I.R.E., & More Through God's Lens)
Ever feel trapped by financial stress, have FOMO about increasing opportunities to make more money, obsessively read articles on side hustles, or just find yourself consumed with endlessly striving for more?
In today's episode, we open up about how our respective upbringings have shaped our perspectives on money.
We talk about how to address poverty mentality and share insights on common generationally inherited money mindsets.
We explore how to navigate economic downturns and uncertainty, as well as how to approach popular aspirations like FIRE and financial freedom through God's lens.
And we also share reflection questions to help you evaluate your own relationship with money - and how to align your heart with God's when it comes to being a faithful steward.
Ultimately, we hope our struggles, testimonies, and lessons learned reassure you that you are not alone in navigating complex tensions around money.
We pray that this episode helps you step into the TRUE freedom God has for you—not just in your bank account, but in every aspect of your life.
TOPICS:
0:00 - Intro
2:18 - Alex's background / upbringing that shaped his money mindset
5:48 - Common money mindset amongst immigrant parents
8:35 - Grace's background / upbringing that shaped her money mindset
13:10 - The role money plays in "non-monetary-related" conflicts
14:40 - How does God want us to view money?
16:49 - 4 Questions to help you reflect on your relationship with money
22:48 - Recommended Owl City song
25:42 - Advice from Eternity Portfolio around your "finish line"
26:46 - Observation about poverty mentality from Ramit Sethi's IWT Podcast
27:35 - Navigating the realities of an unstable economy
29:02 - Lesson about money from Proverbs 3
29:58 - Alex's testimony about tithing / trusting God through giving
32:08 - How do you know if it's God blessing you or just a coincidence?
33:24 - How should Christians think about FIRE / Financial Freedom?
35:22 - Note on false religion / poverty gospel
37:19 - Hotel vs. Home analogy
38:35 - The Big Takeaway
39:22 - 2 Reflection questions for real-life application
40:43 - Last notes & preview of next week's episode!
RELATED RESOURCES
BOOK: Poverty, Riches and Wealth: Moving from a Life of Lack into True Kingdom Abundance by Kris Vallotton
BOOK: The Eternity Portfolio, Illuminated: A Practical Guide to Investing Your Money for Ultimate Results by Alan Gotthardt
BOOK: The Blessed Life: Unlocking the Rewards of Generous Living by Robert Morris
SONG: “Field Notes” by Owl City
EPISODE #1: The #1 Most Important Thing In Life Is This.
Transcript
[0:00]
What comes to mind for you when you hear the word “money”?
There’s so many different reactions and feelings and associations we all have depending on our upbringing and past experiences, and being Mental Health Awareness Month, we felt like it was really important to talk about this topic, because it is one of the leading factors of mental health decline in the U.S., and it's increasingly being talked about in our culture in our society. (If it's not being talked about, it's being thought about.)
And so we wanted to make sure we address and kind of start exploring, you know, what does God say about money? How do we actually view money and navigate all of these nuances with money in a biblical and God-honoring way?
Hello! We are back today with a very not-talked-about topic in the Christian circles, the Church world, and it's so prevalent everywhere, and you will definitely relate to this.
Or maybe it is talked about, but mostly in a certain way or angle. And today, we are literally going to unpack it and the many layers that are in it.
Can you guess what it is? It’s the topic of… money. (I guess people would have known that if they had clicked this episode based on the title.) But yes, it is. That is true, that is true.
So, we want to unpack money, so I feel like… this should be like a few episodes in a series, but today, we're just going to unpack the foundational ways. And for this episode, we're gonna share our own personal struggles with our own upbringing with money. And also, how do we wrestle with money as Christians? And we'll go through some nuances, as well, that's not really talked about in common circles.
So, money is such a big focus in this world. Often we equate it to power, to control, to our desires. There's just so many things that you can do with money, and also, we need money to live, as well.
But Christians, I’ve found that, we just find that our friends also struggle with this, especially- (everybody does) yeah, everyone struggles with this, especially in the San Francisco Bay Area.
[2:18]
So, I want to start off with just sharing more about our own personal journeys, and Grace and I have very different journeys with money and just our relationship with it.
Can I start off by saying: every person, whether or not you realize it, whether or not you're, like, conscious of it, all of us have a relationship with money, like… And I think that's just important to say out front, because I think it's a very sensitive topic. People get very, like, dodgy about it. Like, oh, I don't want to talk about this, or oh, I don't struggle with that at all, you know?
So I think a lot of people have this perception that money is this big thing that a lot of people struggle with, but maybe they don't, because we all have unique relationships with it, that makes us feel like our relationship is the “normal,” the “right” way.
So just want to put that out there off the bat to say that we all have normalized interactions and relationships with money. So it's really important as Christians to really view it through God's lens, through the Bible, to make sure that we're not just drifting through life, assuming, you know, everything's all good. Or maybe we have these perceptions from the world that have informed us about how we should view it, or even through the church without like the actual, biblical, you know, foundation.
Yeah. Definitely. I think everyone's background, I mean everyone's story is so unique and money is just- it is a big part of it, and so how we were raised with money affects how we handle it and view it now.
So we'll start off with sharing our stories a bit. So I’ll go first, and then Grace can share hers. So, my relationship with money actually is generational. So I would say it would go back to my great grandparents.
And for context, my great grandparents, my grandmother, my parents, we did not grow up rich or- by any standards. So they were born and raised in Vietnam, and they were very poor from what I know. And so there was always like a poverty mindset, and we just, we didn't have a lot.
So my parents, I'll speak to their example and what I've seen growing up, because I was always around it, I would say, my parents’ disagreements and fights have mainly been about money in some ways. There's certain nuances of money.
Like, I remember one of my parents’ biggest fights was over a phone bill. I don't know- I was very young. I was probably under 10, but I don't know the details of it, but I just knew, just, as a kid, it was something about money.
And even growing up, my dad was the breadwinner, and he would, kind of, sort of challenge my mom to contribute a little bit. So that was also a source of tension.
So growing up, I always had a poverty mentality. I'm not sure if our listeners know what that means, but it's, essentially, you feel like you're lacking, and there's not enough to go around. And you're always, like, wanting more to feel safer. And that's essentially what I grew up in.
[5:48]
And actually, a lot of, I will say, like, for us, we're both from Asian families. I think this is very prevalent in Asian culture, unknowingly, like, that's why oftentimes, like, Asian parents, especially Asian moms, I don't know if you can't relate with this, but they’ll hoard.
They'll be like, oh my gosh, like I got this amazing deal at Costco, or Aldi or, you know, Ross, and- (all the time) Yeah, I mean, there's nothing wrong with good deals. Like, I'm all for a great deal, as well, and to be smart with spending and saving. But it can also become this obsession where you're like, putting- now you're only, you feel justified around purchases only if it's like, super cheap and a good deal, and then you're like, obsessed with finding deals, even buying things you don't need. So yeah, we see that a lot in Asian culture, especially.
Yeah. I mean to this day, my mom still does that. And I kind of still do that. So there's a lot of carryover to my current life.
And it's not their fault either, it's like, a lot of our parents, or especially if you're like a first generation, second generation, immigran, you know in that field you, your parents also were kind of from that scarcity mindset even more. So when they moved here, right, like our parents, I have empathy, because, yeah, there's nothing else you can really rely on, especially if you don't know God, you don't know that there's a source outside of that.
So you're just trying all that you can to save as much as you can to protect yourself. So it really comes out of like, self-preservation, self-protection, and our parents and a lot of our families just were never equipped to know: how do you see money in a healthy way, that doesn't have a grip or control over you?
Yeah. Yeah. Well-said. And how it relates to today, I mean, we have my upbringing of poverty mentality, not having enough, lacking, plus our- where we live in the San Francisco Bay Area, where it's about money, career, success, buying houses, properties, etc.
Just for me, personally, it's just a lot for me to wrestle through, because there is that lack, but then there's like a biblical view of viewing money, and then there's culture, as well. So there's a kind of… competing priorities, almost.
So I wrestle with this, like, on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. (Yeah.) All the time.
So, yeah. That's I would say, just to summarize my relationship with money, it was just a big disagreement point within my family. (Yeah.)
What about yours? How- what's your relationship with money?
[8:35]
Thanks for asking. I think- Well, first of all, just wanted to validate and also just say thank you for sharing that, because I think a lot of people have similar backgrounds and upbringings, but it's hard to, you know, share. It feels like a touchy subject, and we don't want to acknowledge the pain, the fear around it.
So anyway, just wanted to give Alex a lot of kudos for- this whole podcast idea was his, or this topic was a fruit of his own struggle and testimony. So, just want to put that out there.
But the second thing, so from my story- it's very interesting, because I feel like at the core of it, it's also related to fear, and these like negative associations, but in a very different way.
So for me, growing up, my parents never talked about money in front of me. Like, I literally remember going to my dad's office one time, because I saw my name on an envelope from Wells Fargo, and I was like, oh like what is that? And I want- I had questions. I wanted to ask him, you know, what is this about? Like, how do you know, how do investments, banks, like all that, work?
And I just remember, like, this was only one time, but he did it multiple times, he said, oh, it's too complicated, you're not going to understand. Like, you'll understand when you're older.
And so, I always just had this feeling that, oh okay, I guess I'm not either not smart enough to understand? Or maybe I’m just not ready? But that mentality definitely carried over even into my adulthood, where I was in college, you know, I would be going to banks to try to figure out, like, should I do this thing with this account? Or this thing with this card? And I was just so confused.
And I remember feeling very ill-equipped, like, how, like, how come no one taught me how to do this? How come school isn't teaching us about this, and most importantly, how come my parents, like, didn't, you know, equip me?
And again, I don't think it's their fault. I think they were doing it out of love and out of, you know, protecting or just wanting me to be safe- what they felt was like a safe route, so that they would just handle the money and handle the finances.
But I do think, you know, as we - as Alex and I - have talked about our future family and wanting to be parents, I think this is such an important thing to be talking to your kids about earlier on in a healthy way.
And that's why that's exactly why we have wrestled with it ourselves. That's why we encourage you to really lean into this topic yourself. Because if you don't have a healthy relationship with money, then your kids are also not going to know how to do that, either.
So anyway, long story short, I was just very ignorant. But the- I'll say two things:
The blessing that came out of it was I also didn't feel a stronghold over it for the majority of my life. Even today, it's not really a struggle that I tend to have when it comes to not having enough, because my parents just didn't complain about that. Like, growing up, at least not in front of me (complete opposite of my experience) Right, yeah.
So I always felt like, oh we have enough, like whatever we want to prioritize as a family, we will have enough, and we can give generously to people. My mom really modeled that a lot by giving to everybody who needed things. And I also felt like that generosity ingrained me as well.
And I saw my parents spend and invest on experiences for our family. So we would do, like, trips, we would go out to eat together, and a lot of my, I think, warm, like, loving experiences with my family were around those experiences that they invested in.
So yeah, a lot of good things. I think the negative part of it really is the ignorance. The, you know, “Am I- am I equipped? Am I okay to be evolved with this?”
So, I think with me and Alex, you know, navigating our first few years and marriage, it was, I was like, I really trust you. But also, like, me growing in my own confidence of, like, “Oh, I can have a say in these things, and Alex actually wants my opinion.” And you know, growing in that confidence around money.
Yeah, we we definitely have almost very similar, but very different experiences, where your parents, they actually shielded you away from whatever they were going through, whether it was abundance or lack. (Yeah.)
For me, (it was exposed.) it was so obvious. (Yeah.) It was like, okay, obviously, we're struggling here, and I actually didn't have too many experiences. Like, I remember my mom would like bluntly put, like, “hey, we're too poor to afford like, plane tickets to go on vacations.”
And honestly, I felt a little jealous or envious of other people who could afford to have family vacations.
[13:10]
And there's a lot more there, too. Like, I even, I'm thinking of even how money relates with our emotions, like our psychological safety, like, I I know that for my parents, you know, my dad was the breadwinner. He worked and he had the income, my mom didn’t. So there was also dynamics there, similar to what Alex was saying about his parents.
So when I saw like, tensions or fights, you know, between my parents, even though they're not talking directly about money, I could see how money was a dynamic, or a factor playing into that dynamic between them.
So, yeah, I feel like a lot of it gets revealed now when we're like, “Oh, why am I triggered? Why do I feel this way? It's not a- it's not even supposed to be a big deal around this, like, situation around money,” but it's because deep down, as a kid, when you saw your parents, or when you saw other people, you know, have certain attitudes or certain freedoms or certain power and and different dynamics related to money, it basically told you to tell yourself a story about it that you probably still believe if you're not a conscious of it.
Yeah that's true. I think there's so much we can unpack here. (I know.) Yeah, like, I mean, I can already think of instances, where if I don't have this, then this will happen (right), or I associate it with the fights that my parents would have around money.
But, I think, well, our parents didn't really know God as well as we do and just like his promises and his provision.
[14:40]
So I do want to shift gears a little bit, now that you've heard our stories.
So what I've learned, just over the course of my life and Christian life is that money, you listeners have probably heard this, money is just a tool. It's just, it's neutral, just like almost everything else. But what matters is what happens in the hands of the person who holds it. (Right.)
So money can be used for evil, whether it’s sex trafficking or drugs, whatever, etc. And then there's the good side of it, the godly side, with generosity, with advancing the Kingdom, etc.
So, really it is, it is truly a tool, and it's not something that we own. Everything that we have is God’s. And it's, it's taken a while for me, to, like, really understand it.
I, of course, know it from, like, a lesson. Yeah. But it's hard to internalize it. (Right.) Because our culture says you know, financial independence is good, or we have to, you know, like, “break free from the 9-to-5,” like you know, all that, all those narratives. It's really difficult to wrestle with.
Or the opposite, which we'll talk about, too, which is like, “you have to have nothing to be a good Christian,” you know. Poverty and prosperity gospel are both false gospels.
So, yeah. And one quick thing I'll add is, I think, even though a lot of Christians, we know that, “yeah, I shouldn't, I shouldn't see money as anything good or bad, it is just a tool,” I think because so many of us have these underlying narratives and false beliefs around it that we haven't identified and unrooted, that's why we still struggle with that exact thing that you're talking about, like, how can I have a healthy relationship with money?
It's because you have wounds and unhealed things inside of you related to money that- it needs to be addressed before you can expect yourself to find freedom in it.
Yeah. Yeah. I think we’ll likely do a multiple (part two) part two, three, four, five. I think this can go on forever. (Yeah.)
[16:49]
So I’ve been reading a book called “Poverty, Riches and Wealth” by Kris Valloton. And it's really opened my eyes. So I just want to read through some four questions if you're a person who is worried or worrying about finances.
So the first question is: Do you trust God to take care of you?
I don't really need to explain that, but, essentially: Do you trust the God of the universe to provide for you, regardless if you have little or a lot or everything in between?
[17:21]
The second question, and this more related to the tithe, and we'll talk about this more: Do you honor the leaders over you who give an account for your life?
And I've wrestled with this question, like, are they using my money in the way that I want them to? Are they using it to spread the gospel?
I think there's a lot to unpack there, but essentially, there's a feeling of control that creeps in (like you know what's best.) Yeah. Like, “I know what's best and I want to direct the funds that I want to,” but there's still- even though you're giving, it's still an act of control.
And I would say to that person wrestling with that: it's ultimately up to God to judge your spiritual leaders, and the Bible clearly says that. And so wherever you give, it's about your heart, and trust God will deal with your spiritual leaders. (Yeah.)
If you don't trust them to steward it well, then you should perhaps ask God to reveal why. Or, perhaps you're just under the wrong spiritual leadership and authority. (Right.)
I think that's a tension that a lot of people face is, they want- everybody wants to hold, you know, organizations and leadership accountable for how they're using and stewarding the finances well.
But, there is a fine line, where you cross over into like pride and control when you, when you start having that attitude of like, “oh they're not using it well, I would have used it like this instead.” And it's like, you know, from somebody who used to be on the other side, especially in a church, in the leadership and the ministry side, it's like, “wow thank God, like, our people trust us, because there's so many little details and nuances that people on the outside have no idea about.”
And this is exactly why it's more, you know, God is leading us to give here or invest here and there, versus, you know, how other people might- from the outside might assume would be a “smarter” use of funds.
So yeah, that's another topic. But I do think a lot of people don't talk about this, and I actually didn't even realize this until I started working at the church and had these kinds of questions and conversations with the leaders there.
Like, you know, why, when we talk about tithing or giving to churches, why the church? Why not other charities, or why- (Why not people? We can go on, why, why, why, why, why?)
Yeah, right. And it's because society has normalized and made it so- such a big deal to be like, you control where your money goes, how it's used, and if it's not being used the way you believe then, you know, take it away. And I think it's just been overblown in that aspect.
[19:55]
The third question is: Are you serving mammon, which is the spirit of greed and materialism, or God?
So Matthew 6:24 says, "No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."
[20:21]
And the last question is: Are you afraid of not having enough?
I mean, I wrestle with this question all the time, given the background I just mentioned a few minutes ago.
Yeah, a really good passage that I feel like we often hear about and, you know, it's, it's very prevalent in the Church, but we're gonna dive a little bit deeper into it today because I think it really relates to this, is Matthew 6:19-21:
“Don’t store up treasures here on earth, where moths eat them and rust destroys them, and where thieves break in and steal. Store your treasures in heaven, where moths and rust cannot destroy, and thieves do not break in and steal. Wherever your treasure is, there the desires of your heart will also be.”
So I feel like this passage is really powerful because, I mean, many different things, but one thing is, I remember the first time I read this verse, I did not understand that last sentence: wherever your treasure is, there to desires of your heart will be.
I was like, shouldn't it be flipped? Like why would it say that, instead of wherever your heart is, that's where your treasure will be?
Because I think a lot of us in society, we’re taught like, the treasure is what you go after, right? Like, the goal is to get the treasure. So, in order to get the treasure, you gotta make sure your heart is in the right place.
But if you look at the passage, it's talking about wherever your treasure is, that's where your heart will be - implying that the heart is actually the goal. The goal is not to get the thing. The goal is to have your heart in the right place that God wants you to, you know, how he wants your heart to be.
So, that's one thing. And then the other thing, too, is related to what Alex was just saying. Like, all these questions help us to reflect on: is my treasure really here on earth, or is it actually up in heaven?
Because our human temptation and tendency is just to believe in what we can see visibly. So, of course, if everybody at work is talking about their, you know, their financial stuff, their, you know, what they can afford, their vacations. We see on social media, everyone flaunting, you know, their nice things, and it just gets to us, because our society like, glorifies those earthly experiences and things as the goal.
And again those things are not bad. It's just that, what is bad is when we convince ourselves that those things are what gives us life and security and happiness versus God himself.
[22:48]
Do you wanna also mention a related song that you've really been enjoying that's been ministering to you?
Oh, yes. So there's this song by Owl City. If you don't know Owl City, they're most famous for their song Fireflies that was released (a long time ago) around 2010. It was like around when I was in high school.
But they released a new album. Actually, he- I don't know, Adam Young (shout out to Adam if he ever hears this)- The main artist, Adam Young, I don't know if he collaborates with other people, but I just know at least Adam’s in it, so I'll just speak. Adam is a Christian, very obvious Christian, if you listen to the album.
But there's a song on the album called Field Notes, that's “field” like F I E L D, notes as in, I'll send you love notes.
It's such a beautiful song. You gotta listen to it. It's such a beautiful song about, if you find (so wholesome). Yeah, if you find eternal treasure that gives you so much joy, that’s- just nothing in the world can compare to it. You literally give up everything else that you have and everything's, in comparison, everything else is like a shack, it's like, worthless, because you know that this field, this Kingdom, is so much more priceless and valuable than that.
Yeah, what helps me also is just imagining the eternal riches we’ll get when we see Jesus. And I mean, the ROI on that is just crazy. So (Kingdom ROI) if we are really super long-term focus versus, our maybe 100 years that we have on earth, it's just so much better to invest in the Kingdom.
You'll spend forever and ever in eternity, but we're only 100 years, maybe longer, if you're like, super healthy and God blesses you with such a long life.
I mean, look at our financial system, too. (Yeah.) I don't want to get into this, but there's inflation, and there- our banking system is a little messed up right now, as of this recording, 2023. Recession. Yeah, recession. Etc.
But everything can- just like, it says, it can rot and, you know, be destroyed. Anything can disappear. So even if you, you know, say you make a lot of money, there's tons of, countless stories of people who have lost everything, and it's out of their control. They never expected it. Whether it's a recession, a layoff, another tragedy, a scam. That's actually happened to us before.
So, there's just so many things that we cannot control. And actually, if that's ever happened to you, or if that's even going- happening to you right now, where you feel like, “why am I losing all this money? Or how come this tragedy is happening to me?” It actually could be a blessing that God is trying to teach you to let go of control of money to make sure it's not your foundation and to put your foundation on him.
[25:42]
I'm also reading another book. So I'm reading two books simultaneously. This one's called Eternity Portfolio. And it is so good, highly recommend it. We'll link it.
But in the book it tells us, or highly recommends us, to have our own finish line. And it asks, how much is objectively enough?
Like… Like, literally, do you have, like, a number in mind? Like, these are things that we should be asking ourselves. Because it's unfortunate that the rich do get richer. That's because with more money, you can just do a lot more: you can buy more properties, you can invest in stuff, businesses, etc.
And so, if we play this rat race of money, it's never gonna end. And when we get sucked into that, our treasures and our hearts will not be in heaven, but it's on the things of this world, it's on the hundred years or so that we're here on earth. (Right.)
There's no black or white answers to this, either, it's totally dependent on each- everyone's situation, and it's up to you and God to decide.
[26:46]
Just wanna clarify: What's unfortunate about that is not the fact that they're making more money. What’s unfortunate is that no matter how much money you make, it can always have a grip on you if you don't address the root cause, again, in your mentality.
Because, you can listen- there's this awesome podcast, we find it very amusing: Ramit Sethi’s “I Will Teach You To Be Rich” Podcast. It's very interesting, ‘cause he basically meta-narrates his conversations coaching couples about financial conversations.
And you have these, like, millionaires, billionaires who are like scraping, they're like coupon-cutting their, you know, they're like, “oh I had I had to get this dea,” even though it's like, pennies in comparison to what they make, but it's, again, it’s because they're stuck in the poverty mentality around, “I'll never have enough” versus actually having a finish line, just like what Alex was saying.
[27:35]
So good. So I wanna also dive a little deeper into some nuances of finances. And we're currently in a not-very-good economy here in the U.S., so I do wanna address some things that our listeners are probably going through, like high interest rates, inflation, stock markets are going down. And we totally understand that.
And I am the finance, the CFO person in our family. So, I wanna say that we all have desires in our hearts. Like for many people in the Bay Area, they wanna buy a home, which is super expensive here, by the way. Average is more than millions of dollars, or a million dollars.
But I think, it's so hard to wrestle through, because we wanna honor God with our money, but then we also have these other desires, and then there's these economic pressures that we face, but, it's hard to go through it.
Inevitably, there will be people listening to this who, maybe you're a single mom, maybe you have a lot of debt, you know? So not everybody's situation is the same. And I totally understand that.
So what we're trying to get at is not, like, you need to do this or that, it's just helping you to reflect on: at the end of the day, regardless of your situation and your circumstance, how much are you placing your trust on money versus God?
Because there also is evidence all over Scripture that the more you release to God, the more he actually blesses you with.
[29:02]
Actually, this morning, I didn't even make the connection, but this morning, I was meditating on, in Proverbs 3, how it talks about: “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.”
And actually, couple passages down, I don't have it right in front of me, but it basically talks about, like, the more you surrender your wealth and and give to God your firstfruits, the more he'll actually multiply and give you abundance.
And I think that's just the ironic part, right? Is you have to give, you have to let go, in order for God to give you more, because he wants to be able to entrust you with more.
If you're holding on to something out of poverty mentality, out of like, “this thing will save me,” God, I mean, he can do whatever he wants, what he knows is best, but it just makes sense that he is waiting for you to come to a place where it's not an idol, and it's not a crutch, so that you can actually be a faithful steward and not feel like you're possessing or owning it for your own security, if that makes sense.
[29:58]
I do have a testimony about that. (Yeah.) But I will keep it short.
For the first five years of following Jesus, I did not give anything - to the church, to anything Christian-related. Sad to say, but it was just such a stronghold in my life.
Now I'm on my 10th year following Jesus, it's been a little better. But for the first five years, I was definitely very unfaithful - actually, unknowingly unfaithful (right) - because I didn't know about, oh, wha- what is tithing? (Right.) I didn't know about that concept until I learned about it later.
But on the fifth year, in about 2018, I gave my first tithe. It was extremely difficult, but at the same time, it was very fulfilling, as well.
And at that time, I was working in a pretty toxic work environment. I wasn't enjoying it, but after that, like months after that, God opened doors for me to have a job that more aligns with my personality and just the culture was a lot better. Financially, God provided well above my expectations.
And that's one example, I mean another example was in 2020, where I felt like God wanted me to get a very significant sum to our local church. And I wrestled with that for a long time.
And so, after just weeks of praying, wrestling, arguing with God, I decided to do it.
And then, six months afterwards, I got a job that is so much better than the one I was- where I was before. Even though that one before was pretty good. This one was so much better in everything: culture, people, the income.
And so this is just to illustrate that, yeah, God can do exactly that: he can bless you when you give more. But at the same time, I do want to caveat this- We're not endorsing the prosperity gospel. Please don't give to get something. (Yeah.) But this is just a like an example of what God can do. (Right, to reassure people, like, from our experience.)
[32:08]
Well, I do have a question. I think some people might be asking, well, how do you know that's not a coincidence? How do you know, like, those good things that happened, didn't just, you know- how do you know it's like correlated?
Yeah, it's so easy to just call things like that a coincidence, but… you can call it coincidence. I mean, listeners can call it coincidence, but I'll call it faith. I'll call it God, because I really do believe God does own everything in this world. So we will never know, like (100%), we will never know if it's what you call logical coincidence, or is it God.
It's like, you could be driving, and you could be driving to work if you're listening, and you don't get into a car accident. Is that coincidence? Or is that God? It's really hard to say, right? It's hard to put God in a box.
Like, as humans, we don't know- The reality is we don't know, but we know that God is with us all the time. And so what we do know is he is directing our steps, he's rerouting things, he's protecting us in ways we don't know.
And so, you know, what- in this situation, what is the most helpful for your faith and your heart? Is to like, bring this to God and be like, “Okay, God, if this is what you did, then what are you teaching me? Or this, if this is what you're teaching me, then how can I grow?” You know, so, anyway, that's a- that's another wormhole.
[33:24]
But another thing I think I want to address real quick, is that a lot of people have this concept of financial freedom, and we hear this a lot in terms of, you know, “FIRE.”
What's it called: Financial Independence, Retire Early, I think? It's like a really trendy thing these days.
So I just wanna address that really quick, because I felt God reveal to me so much about this, ‘cause I was wresting with him, “Like, God, I see these Christians who are, you know, having passive income businesses, or they're having a lot of properties, or they're going into Airbnbs.”
Like, there's so many like, side hustles and side gigs the more the Internet advances and allows us to do this, which is a great opportunity. But at the same time, there is the danger of still, you know, can this control you and make you think that this is your God, right?
Just to address that really quick, I felt like God was showing me that the whole myth of financial freedom, isn't that it's- financial freedom in itself, in terms of the practical sense of freeing your time, freeing your resources, giving you more opportunities, those things are not in itself bad.
What is a danger is when we subconsciously take this term “financial freedom” and equate it with “spiritual freedom,” because then we are putting ourselves in the role of God.
We're saying, “Now we can call the shots. We can do whatever we want, whenever we want, however we want.”
And that's actually what the world promotes, right? That's why in a lot of financial freedom communities, they're like, just, “You wanna do whatever you want? Go for it! Like, this is the path to do that.”
So as Christians, it's really important for us to remember, you know, pursuing these financially, you know, wise or opportunistic investments are not bad, but what is a danger is when you place yourself in the role of God rather than submit yourself as God's steward, to steward those finances, and those opportunities for his glory.
So we can unpack that more in another episode, but I wanted to say that really quick.
[35:22]
And the last thing, the last caveat is false religion. I think a lot of people, you know, we talk about prosperity gospel, like, you know, Christians say, “oh yeah, it's not about having things.”
But on the opposite side, it can also be dangerous to fall into false religion, false humility, of like, “Look at me, I'm, like, so impoverished. I'm suffering for the gospel. I'm, you know, this is everything I'm giving up. Look, I'm such a good Christian.” And so it can- that can also be a source of spiritual pride.
And I really felt, actually, God was convicting me of that. Like, in the past few months, when I wrestling with this with God, like, “God, is it okay to like, pursue this podcast idea? ‘Cause I just feel like it's self-promotion. I don't know, like, I always see other people doing it, but is it bad to be- like, is it selfish?”
And ultimately, I felt like God was saying, Grace, you’re falling into false religion. Like you think being hidden, being in anonymity, is more holy. And you don't want people to think poorly of you. So you're just, like, shrinking away, versus, you know, breaking past the barrier of what will people say or think about you.
So, anyway, that's another thing to get into another time, but I just wanted to say that, because I think on both sides it is dangerous to fall into prosperity gospel or poverty gospel, when really, it's about the gospel of Jesus being the way and truth and life for us.
We know people who are very well wealthy, loves Jesus, and people who are on the opposite side of the spectrum, who also love Jesus. And there's no right or wrong. It's just a matter of your heart, yielding and surrendering to Jesus and following his call.
For some, if you have the ability to make a lot of money, great. Use it. But then there are others who are called to be, like, missionaries in Africa, which is awesome. God bless you for doing that, as well.
It's all about what God is uniquely telling you. Not you thinking, like, “oh it has to be a formula, it has to look a certain way, and if I don't do that, I'm a bad Christian.”
[37:19]
So one verse I'll read is in 1 Timothy 6:17-19, it says:
"Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life."
I love that it ends with “the life that is truly life,” because so often we think, “this is life, this is what we're living for.” And this passage just really illuminates, on top of so many other passages in the Bible, but: we are living for eternity. That's what our true home, that's where our storehouse is, right? Is in heaven, is in God's Kingdom, not here on this temporary earth that's gonna fade away.
And an analogy I heard from a pastor one time is, if you store all your treasures here on earth, it's like having a hotel room and you're like, decking out your hotel room, when you're gonna check out that hotel room, eventually - everybody's gonna check out.
So instead of putting your resources, your investment, in decorating your hotel room, it should be in your true home, where you truly will belong after.
[38:35]
I can't emphasize this enough for people who are listening, it's not a rulebook. It's not you need to live a certain way, or do this, because, you know, I was telling Alex earlier, there's many Scriptures and examples in the Bible of burnt offerings of people made to God, and God actually wasn't pleased. Because he was like, you're just doing this to try to show off your religiousness, you’re trying to look like a good Christian, but I never asked you for this. I asked for your heart and your faith. And you’re giving me your burnt offerings.
So again, I feel like, it's very tempting for Christians to be like, “Oh, okay, if you are telling me I should just give my money away, then I'll just do it. And I'll be guilt-free.” The point is to actually engage with God: What is he specifically asking you to do so that you can be freed from the stronghold of money?
[39:22]
So to apply this for your week, we have two questions that you can ask. And just be honest with yourself. Don't judge yourself, don't shame yourself for your answers. The important thing is just to bring them to God honestly and wrestle with him through these.
So the first question is: What choices are you making, or not making, that show that you're not fully trusting God to take care of you?
And the second question is: What can you do in response to that, in order to allow God to show you that he is your provider, and that money is not?
I think all of us struggle with this in some degree, and it's important to continually recalibrate, reset our hearts to make sure that God is the one that we trust in, not money.
So we hope that these two questions really help you to evaluate and figure out where are you in your journey. What are the areas that, maybe you thought you had surrendered, maybe it has a control over you again, or maybe you've never surrendered, and God wants you to finally let it go, and open your hand up to him, so that he can give you even more. It might not look a certain way that you want, but it'll look the best way that he knows is the best.
Yes. And we know this is a lot to unpack, and this is only scratching the surface. We would love to hear from you any other questions that you have on faith and finances, and we would love to unpack it more with you.
Until next time, see you next week!
[40:43]
We hope this gave you a new paradigm, or a renewed paradigm, through which to view money according to God's lens, not the world's ways.
Because it is so easy for us to get swept up into, what are other people saying or thinking, what are other people worried about, and then pretty much the enemy tries to distract and discourage us and make us all worried instead of living in the freedom that God intends for us, and then our faith becomes in our finances and not truly in God.
And so we want to encourage you use the Reflect & Apply Guide to really walk this out. We don't want this podcast to be something that's fun to listen to, but ultimately we want it to be a tool for you, to equip you to really live by faith in your everyday life.
And the other thing is, we talked about how our upbringing really shapes how we view money, but also it isn't just the case for money, it's the case for everything in life, pretty much.
So any area that you feel stuck in, every internal struggle you have, so much of it comes back to how were you raised? What were some generational patterns that you observed that you picked up and just normalized without even realizing?
And so next week, we have a very special guest. She is one of our great friends, who's literally changed our lives. You'll find out more when you hear about it, but she's a great coach, mentor, entrepreneur, leader, and friend.
And she's going to be talking about: how do we overcome and heal from these generational wounds and recurring fears, so that they don't have a grip on us, and we can live out in the abundance and the freedom God desires for us?
So yeah, can't wait to share, and see you back next week!
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We pray that God fills you with his love, his joy, his peace, and his wisdom as you continue growing in your daily walk with him. We're so grateful for you and we can't wait to see you again next week!