Episode 9: "I Was In A Same-Sex Relationship for 10 Years": LGBTQIA+ & Faith - Nadia Benbernou
How do we navigate Pride Month as Christians?
We all come from a wide range of experiences, views, and emotions when it comes to the topic of sexual orientation.
You might feel like the odd one out in your workplace, unsure of what to do in cultures that celebrate Pride.
Or, you might feel like the odd one out in church circles, upset about Christians who seem bigoted or hateful.
Or, you might identify as LGBTQIA+ yourself, but have been hurt by the Church's responses - or are afraid of being "found out."
With so much complexity around this, we recognize it's a sensitive one that's hard to talk about, let alone know how to approach in our everyday lives.
In this episode, we're joined by our friend Nadia Benbernou, as she opens up about some incredible stories of how Jesus has transformed her life...
From a comfy career as a Google engineer with a PhD from MIT, to becoming a full-time missionary in one of the poorest & most dangerous countries in the world...
And from being in a same-sex relationship for 10 years (and then marriage), to having God completely transform her identity and sexuality in ways she least unexpected.
Wherever you might currently stand, our genuine hope and prayer is that this convo inspires you, and perhaps challenges you, to consider what God can do in and through people...
…and to have and to reflect the kind of true freedom, peace, and wholeness he so deeply desires for ALL of us. ❤️
TOPICS:
0:00 - Intro
1:41 - How Grace & Nadia met, what led Nadia from Google engineering to a full-time missions in Mozambique
9:31 - Adjusting from Google to Mozambique
11:15 - God at work amidst violent Christian persecution & beheadings
13:14 - Nadia's testimony of how Jesus radically transformed her life
23:06 - Reconciling SSA / gender dysphoria with faith & identity
24:25 - How do we discern confusion vs. truth?
32:26 - How can the Church better support those who identify as LGBTQIA+?
35:56 - The responsibility of pastors / preachers
37:10 - How can Christians navigate Pride Month with truth AND love?
38:57 - The importance of this moment in history (& what this means for us)
ABOUT OUR GUEST:
In 2019, Nadia Benbernou left Google as a software engineer and product manager working on wearables and mobile payments, to build a university in Mozambique, one of the poorest nations on the planet.
With a Ph.D in applied mathematics from MIT, she serves as a missionary and intercessor with Iris Global, Director of International Relations of Iris University, on Heidi Baker's exec admin team, and as US Ambassador for ICEF: a Mozambican org that supports women in entrepreneurship.
She loves Jesus with all her heart, soul, mind, and strength. She is passionate about helping people walk in the fullness of who they are in Christ.
IG: @nadiabenbernou / Email: nadia@irisglobal.org
RELATED RESOURCES
[6-MIN VIDEO] Gay Girl, Good God: The Story of Who I Was And Who God Has Always Been - Jackie Hill Perry
Coming Out, Inc. - Support for individuals and their loved ones as they seek Christ for biblical wholeness in their identity, sexuality, spirituality and relationships
What Does the Bible Really Teach About Homosexuality? by Kevin DeYoung
Gay Girl, Good God: The Story of Who I Was, and Who God Has Always Been by Jackie Hill Perry
Transcript
[0:00]
Hey everyone, welcome back to the podcast! We're so excited that you're here, because we have a very special episode today with one of my good friends, Nadia.
And before we get into the episode, I do wanna give a preface. So we know that right now, it's June, and it is Pride Month.
And so today, as we're talking about this topic, we know that so many people, you guys all have different perspectives, backgrounds, churches that you've gotten to, that have all probably had different viewpoints on the subject of sexuality and sexual orientation.
Maybe some of you guys identify as part of the LGBTQ+ community, and I wanna acknowledge at the forefront that there has been a lot of hurt from the church about your identity, or who you are, or your value, based on these things that you've heard.
And so, we just want to put that out on the forefront. And before we get started, ask that no matter what part of the spectrum you're on, that you just have an open heart and open ear to hear and listen to our guest and her story.
I invited Nadia today to share her personal story and experience, because I think, when I first heard it, when we actually met back at Google many years ago, when she was a Google engineer, and now she's a full-time missionary in Mozambique, I think our very first conversation was about this testimony, and it just blew me away. And so, I really wanted to invite her on here, because I know that it will also inspire and encourage a lot of you guys, as well.
So yeah, welcome to the podcast, Nadia, so glad and honored to have you on here!
Yeah, I'm so glad to be on here. Thank you for having me.
[1:41]
Can you tell us, first of all, a bit of your story? Because when we first met, you were an engineer at Google, now, you're in Mozambique, being a full-time missionary. Can you talk about what led you to make that transition? And just how it's been so far?
I would love to share that. And can I share how we met, as well?
Yeah.
So Grace and I met actually, in 2018, I was actually out at Mountain View on a work trip. And I had been part of the Google Christian Fellowship in Boston, but I had never actually met Grace before or any of the members that were in the Bay Area. But I felt like the Lord specifically singled out Grace Chen and said to grab coffee with you.
So we end up getting coffee together. I end up sure my testimony with you, and then you end up introducing me to Heidi Baker, who’s the person who I work with here in Mozambique.
We end up having breakfast with her, and then two years to the day later, which only God could have orchestrated this, my very first outreach in Mozambique, I was going house to house with Heidi on the ground, it was two years to the date later, so only the Lord could have done that.
Yeah. But my kind of transition to Mozambique, it's a long story and it started actually several years ago. So the church that I had come to faith and a couple of the pastors there, they had been super, I don't know if you guys have heard of the Toronto Revival, but they had really experienced the Lord there and God actually restored their marriage in this revival.
And they knew Heidi. So they would share about Heidi at that time, and there was also a missionary at the church that- or sorry, yeah, there was a girl, she worked with Iris, she was a missionary in Mozambique, so she would come back and just share these stories of what God was doing in Mozambique.
And I remember even then, like, my heart was just burning with these stories that she was sharing. And you know, because of these pastors, I looked into Heidi a little bit, and I started reading her early books, like Compelled By Love and Always Enough. And those books, really they impacted me in such a profound way.
For one thing, I understood that like, I didn't have any grid for this, but like, God can literally do anything, that nothing is too hard or impossible for him. But really, it impacted me just seeing the love and the compassion of God in action. And that, also that when I look at Heidi's relationship with Jesus, I didn't even know that you could have that kind of intimate relationship with the Lord. So that really had quite an influence on me and then, you know, ultimately, my walk with the Lord and how I prioritized, how I spent my time and things like that. I just wanted to know Jesus as much as I could.
So, you know, after the Lord, which I'll share more about, but the Lord did a lot of healing of identity issues for me, and then after that, the Lord began to open doors to do short-term ministry trips.
I, you know, I enjoyed my job as a software engineer. I wouldn't say that it was like the passion of my life for anything, but God definitely gave grace for it. But it was really in building those relationships with my co-workers who wouldn't necessarily step foot in a church, and just seeing the love of God and the Kingdom of God break in in that environment, like, I really enjoyed that aspect.
But around 2019, I began just feeling the grace start to lift for my engineering work and like, that God might have something else for me. And I was kind of praying into doing missions and doing ministry full-time.
So I ended up taking a leave of absence, so Iris, they have a missions training school, I don't know if you can be trained to learn how to do missions until you actually do it, but they have a school called the Harvest School.
So, I took a leave of absence to do this school. A couple months before the school, I end up having a dream and, you know, someone had meant to write Iris in the dream, but they wrote me instead, asking me to please come to Mozambique, you know, that it would be a new beginning, that God would give me grace, and that I have governmental authority there.
I didn't really know what any of that meant at that point, and kind of God veiled the dream for me for a time.
And then, end up doing the Harvest School, which, my school, because of, which I'll share more about, because of the war that we have in Mozambique, the school wasn't able to be in Mozambique. So my school was a traveling school. So I went to Scotland, Israel, and Madagascar, and then ended up doing an extended outreach in South Africa.
And at the school, I really was wrestling with the Lord about whether he wanted me to stay at my job,or to quit. And, you know, one of the things that was really hard for me, Google, as Grace knows, Google is a pretty cushy company to work for, and there's a lot of just great benefits, the salary, everything, right? It's not easy to leave Google. It's like you said, golden handcuffs, right?
So, one of the questions which I asked myself, which really kind of probed what was in my heart was, you know, say that I made the same amount of money doing missions as I did working at Google… What would I rather do?
And the answer was really obvious to me that I would rather do missions. And then so I just said the Lord like, look, I'm not going to let money, you know, stand in the way. I only have one life to live. I want to be all in for you, Jesus.
And you know, but at the same time I was, ‘cause the Lord was moving so much at Google, so I was willing to stay there if that's what he wanted. And then, you know, whenever I would pray or be in worship, I just kept, that thought just kept coming to to leave my job.
And then in Israel, I ended up meeting with Heidi again. So I have a PhD from MIT, which, I guess she heard that I have a PhD, so she wanted to talk because in Northern Mozambique, we're actually starting a university here. So she was just sharing about the university and would I consider teaching at the university, even just for six weeks of the year. You know, and I was polite to her at the time, but it wasn't, you know, what I pictured of of missions or doing ministry.
But then a couple weeks later, I end up having another dream, which I felt like the Lord was saying to help Heidi with the university.
So, then I took a leap of faith. On my birthday, July 20th, not the best time timing, I told my family I was quitting my job, it didn't go well, they thought I was joining a cult.
But this strong, like, backlash that I got like, I knew that this is the Lord, right? When you trigger that kind of a response, I knew that this was God.
So I kept moving in faith. I reached out to Heidi's PA at the time and just said, hey, I feel like the Lord's telling me to leave my job. I'm willing to help with the university. And then they were like, please, please come.
I was actually supposed to move out to San Francisco. And, ‘cause I was in the process of converting from a software engineer to a product manager, and so I was supposed to move out there, so I reported in San Francisco and just gave my notice. I had so much favor with my manager, he was like, oh we'll keep your workload light, whatever amount of time you want to keep working, it's fine. And then I was able to have all these divine appointments with my co-workers over this month.
My last month there, I had to sell all my stuff that was in Boston. I had to rehome my cat. Yeah, and then obviously the visa process, then January 2020, that's when I moved to Mozambique, couple months before COVID hit.
Such a cool story and I always forget that, yeah, I am a little, I get to play a little piece in that story of how (you totally do) how you met Heidi and became a missionary.
When I think of you and your obedience and how you literally, like, left your job as a Google engineer to become a missionary in Mozambique, your story just really embodies that full devotion to God, like, you truly had the trust him at every single level to really make that decision and go after the thing that you felt him calling you to do. And what a beautiful story. I feel like that's so encouraging.
[9:31]
Can you talk a bit, too, I know, like, people are probably also wondering, like, how was it adjusting from your previous, like, tech lifestyle to be being a missionary over there?
Yeah. It was a really humbling journey for me. Because… basically, Mozambique, and then working for a Christian ministry in Mozambique, is about as far away from the culture of Google as you can get.
And the way that that people work is very, it's pretty old school. It's very like, pen and paper, and bureaucracy, and that was really frustrating for me of, you know, ‘cause I liked to work quickly. I liked to work efficiently. And I had to learn how to be way more relational and that the process and being, you know, taking the opportunity to pour into someone is more important than getting the task done per se, and that's a balance, and that's a balance that I'm still learning. But definitely my mentality had to shift a lot in coming here and in understanding that my assignment wasn't to bring the culture of Google to Iris, but the Lord had something else in mind.
We have this culture, right? Where it's so much about getting things done. But I think especially when you make a transition like this into ministry full-time, you see, wow, actually, the way Jesus operated was he was all about people, he was very patient, he took his time. He didn't get frustrated with, you know, little interruptions of people asking him for help. And yeah, I can totally see like that is just probably one piece of a much larger range of things that you've had to adjust to you.
You were kind of mentioning before all the things have been happening in Mozambique.
[11:15]
Can you kind of share what's been going on and how have you seen God moving in Mozambique?
Yeah, for sure. Basically the province that we're in is in a war, and it's been these radical jihadists that have been burning down villages and beheading people. Thousands of people have lost their lives, they're definitely explicitly persecuting Christians. In the midst of this, over a million people have had to flee their homes. And many of them have come to Pemba, which is where we are. And Pemba is one of two cities in our province that hasn't been attacked yet.
And so, the Lord is sending people that they've been through this extreme trauma, but they're actually encountering Jesus. And we've baptized hundreds and hundreds of them in the ocean. Many Muslims even are encountering Christ. We're seeing just the Lord do the miraculous, we're seeing him open deaf years, we're seeing the mute speak, we're seeing people get set free from demons. So the Lord's doing the extraordinary in the midst of really challenging circumstances.
And one of the things that I'm seeing is that it's really strengthening the Christians. Because they're having to really decide, you know, what do they believe in? And is Jesus really worth it? You know, are they really all in for Jesus?
You know, one of our pastors said, they can burn my house, they can burn my belongings, but they can never burn Jesus out of me. And that's so true.
That takes a lot of courage and faith to really be doing, be staying where you're at, ‘cause, you know, so many people could easily move somewhere that seems more comfortable, more safe. But the fact that you, and I think you mentioned like 10 other missionaries or less than that, are in that area, just seeking to reach the lost and help people find hope in Jesus, is so inspiring. And it reminds me that that is truly what we're called to do at the end of the day is to spread the gospel, help people encounter and know Jesus, even if it means risking our own safety and our own comfort.
[13:14]
So yeah, when we first met, I remember your testimony of how you met Jesus, and how he changed your life was one that I will never forget, because it really, really opened my eyes, especially around the subject of sexual orientation, sexuality, and someone of faith.
So I was wondering if you could share that with our listeners, of how you met Jesus, and how he transformed you.
Yeah, I would love to.
Yeah. So, I grew up, like, with a single mom. My dad's Algerian and my mom's American. And my dad left when I was really young. And, you know, when he was around, it was just very, kind of a volatile home environment, and then, you know, he ended up leaving.
And obviously my mom did the best that she could being a single mom. But I think one of the things that a father really does for a child is to impart identity.
So I really struggled with that abandonment growing up, and really not, you know, not knowing who I was and what my identity was.
And I was raised kind of like, nominally Catholic, but it was just religion. I didn't know who Jesus was, and I hadn't encountered him yet. And then, once I kind of hit puberty, I started experimenting, you know, sexually, but also with like marijuana, with alcohol, from pretty young age. And just a lot of, I was also having same-sex attraction around that time, but I, you know, basically with guys and with girls, there was just a lot of confusion for me.
And then when I was 16 years old, I ended up going, like, fully into the gay lifestyle for one year, and I almost actually dropped out of high school, was in clubs, and you know, experimenting in harder drugs.
Ended up my senior year kind of going back into the closet, getting a boyfriend, going back to getting straight A's. I was always generally academically successful, but I think on the inside, I just had a lot of issues going on, and I was looking for love in just some really unhealthy ways.
And then I ended up going to Smith College, which is a really liberal women's college in Western Massachusetts. And my thinking at a time was okay, maybe I can get a good education but also meet someone there. I studied math there, my senior year of college, I end up meeting this girl, I'll just call her Mary for the sake of the recording.
And it was kind of like, this magnetic attraction. Like, as soon as we met, we were kind of inseparable. But it was also a pretty volatile relationship. Like, I love you, I hate you, and just some harder drugs were getting involved. I was never, you know, Mary was addicted to cocaine, I was never addicted to cocaine, praise the Lord. But there was just a lot that was going on.
And then, this is totally just the grace and the favor of God that was on my life, ‘cause I didn't even know him yet, but I end up getting accepted to MIT to a PhD program in math.
So, I move out there, Mary ends up moving out there a short time later. Our relationship just gets more and more crazy. Mary was even suicidal. So it's just, and then I was really struggling with MIT and with imposter syndrome, like I just felt like I didn't belong there, that I was not qualified to be there, just because my background just felt weaker than a lot of the other students.
And then, my third year of grad school, around this time, my grandfather- now, my grandfather, he was the only born again Christian in my family at that point, and I believe he was praying for me.
So he's dying of cancer around this time. And then I end up, over winter break, in a conversation with my stepdad, just to philosophical conversation, just about the meaning of life, and why are we here.
And my stepdad is very smart, and he believes in God, he's not a born again Christian, but the Lord used this conversation, because up to that point, or kind of the thinking it academia, and maybe you've come across this, Grace, is that only uneducated people believe in God. And so that kind of gave me pause, it's like, oh my stepdad believes in God. So let me at least- it was like a light bulb kind of switched on, and I was like, well let me at least look into this for myself.
So I ended up getting a Bible and I also got a Quran, because at that point I was like, well, If anyone's right, it's probably the Muslims or the Christians.
And when I looked at the Quran, I didn't find any life there. And then I started reading the Bible, you know, initially more I started in Genesis and reading like from a historical perspective and doing research and stuff like that.
But then I started reading one of the Gospels, and I just end up getting completely undone by Jesus, and it's like the Lord just removed the veil for my eyes. And I knew he was who he said he was. And immediately, like, he transformed me from the inside out, and he made me into a new woman.
And I used to have really bad anxiety, it was gone. Mary and I, we used to get in these explosive arguments, and I had a really bad temper, and it was just like, completely gone. My anger was gone, and for the first time in my life, I had peace.
And then Mary, she literally sees how God had made me into a new person, and she ends up having her own encounter with Jesus.
I had zero grid for what the Bible teaches about marriage and sexuality, and my thinking at the time, I just thought that Christians were bigoted, right? Like, I thought like, this is who I am, this is my identity, right? So of course, God would accept it.
So we first end up going to one of these churches with like, the big rainbow flag outside. So I went there, but it was like no one actually believed the Bible there. And for me, this was like, this book was all or nothing. This was either all true or none of his was true, that was my approach to Scripture and walking with Jesus, it's like, if I can't trust, you know, I have to be able to trust him in everything.
So we end up leaving that church, and then we end up going to a Vineyard church. Oh, so I forgot to mention about my- Yeah, so my grandfather around that time, I was actually with him. He had asked me if I would accept Christ. I said yes, I was with him, holding his hand. He ended up dying on my birthday. And I didn't plan this, but I end up getting baptized the day before his birthday at that Vineyard church, which was just a wink from the Lord, and I really do believe he was praying for me.
But yeah. So I get baptized there, I get filled with the Holy Spirit. I learn how to hear God's voice, how to heal the sick, how to do this stuff, you know? But also this church, we were engaged at the time, and one of the difficult things was that this church was actually under confusion around this topic.
And so we had some of the leaders that were saying that God was blessing the relationship. And then there was other people in the church that were super like, they treated us like we had the plague.
So we were kind of in the middle of this church schism, which wasn't great for, especially not for new believers to become the poster children for this controvery.
Yeah.
And then you know, that church actually, they subsequently ended up leaving the Vineyard over this issue, unfortunately. But we, one of the leaders in that church ands up marrying us. Before the wedding, I end up, I have a visitation from a demon that was pretending to be an angel. And I just really didn't have peace about this experience, but I went forward with the wedding.
But, just really not feeling peace about the whole situation, and still just really hungry for Jesus.
So all my free time, I would just spend in the Word, just spend in his presence, and God would just, he just would come in such a powerful way. And he would just, even like on my living room floor, my bedroom floor, he would just deliver me of stuff, because my past was really, really messy.
And one of the things that the Lord did through that was to reveal and to heal my identity as a woman. Because I had really rejected my femininity and in the marriage with Mary, I used to dress like a boy, I would probably, if it was this, I could have even become trans, you know, but it wasn't as popular that at that time period as it is now.
Yeah, but the Lord really healed my identity as a woman, and there came a point for me where I’d seen God come through in so many different areas, where I said to him, like, Lord, I'll trust you with my sexuality, too.
And then at that point, the Lord began to speak. Like, we actually took three weeks apart. The Lord really clearly spoke that I need to lay the relationship down, and then he gave the grace just to walk out that separation.
Obviously, it was painful because we had been together for 10 years at that point. But, one of the things that I noticed coming out of that was that amount of freedom that I felt and the joy really increase, because the more free you get, the more joy you have.
So I really felt like, because whether you're aware of it or not, when you're in a relationship that hasn't been ordained by God, it produces a level of bondage. So you feel that when those chains lift off.
Mm. Wow, that's so powerful and so good. Because yeah, I feel like a lot of us, a lot of society, you hear more and more like, people going through a lot of anxiety, depression, fear, you know, and there's many different factors that play into it, but definitely on a spiritual level, I personally can attest, too, when you're out of line with what God is calling you or designed you to do, you do feel this internal like, conflict, or just this tension that you can't explain like, why am I feeling so heavy, or so weighed down? And oftentimes it's actually our obedience that can actually help free us from that, because then we're walking in line with God's spirit and his will.
Yeah.
[23:06]
I wanna ask a question I think a lot of people in today's culture have, because a lot of people view, you know, their same-sex attraction, as like, it's just naturally who they are, is so core to their identity. Even like gender dysphoria, a lot of people, they really feel that they've been born in the wrong body.
If I were in their shoes, I would also be very angry if Christians were like labeling me, like being so hurtful against me, and trying to like convert me, when I have such a strong belief that this is my true authentic self.
So can I ask you kind of around that tension, as a Christian, how did you reconcile the idea of your true identity with the reality of having experienced this same-sex attraction?
Yeah. So, I think there was a shift, ‘cause like, initially, I was coming from the perspective of, I'm gay, that that's my identity. And then, at some point, it clicked that, no, I'm actually, my identity is I'm a daughter of God. And I happened to be in the same-sex relationship at the time, but that doesn't define who I am, or what I am. He defines who I am.
When we identify with the lie, it actually gives power to it, and it's that much more difficult to break it.
[24:25]
I want to ask actually really quick, if we can backtrack a bit, because you talked about how you knew there was a spirit of confusion in your environment in the things that people were talking about.
I think a lot of Christians and non-Christians struggle with knowing what's true and what's not true, because there's just so many different voices all around us. (Right.)
So can you just unpack a bit about how, when you said you heard from the Lord, like, this is not what he wants you to live and how he wants you to live, can you explain how you knew that?
Sure. Yeah, so, first off I came to a place in my walk with the Lord, so for me, biblically, it was really clear, you know, God's intent in creation, in creating male and female, and that the man and the woman, they’re designed to complement each other. And to, it's a union that produces fruit and multiplies. There's no positive mention of same-sex relationships in Scripture.
You know, even when, this sounds kind of weird, but when I would see other same-sex couples, it would just feel like this is, this feels off. I don't believe that this is what the Lord has.
And there came a point where it's like, if someone came to me and asked for counsel if they should get into a same-sex relationship or not- In fact, there was actually a a heterosexual couple in that church, and the wife end up leaving the husband for a woman. And I just remember that kind of was just like, no, I just don't think this is the heart of God.
And so then I really felt like, wow, this is, I'm kind of a hypocrite here, you know? ‘Cause I was living a situation that I started, was starting to believe this isn't, this isn't right. This isn't what God has.
But also, I was scared to get out of it, because just the amount of time we've been together, the deep connection, all of that, right? It felt really scary. And then, I’ll just share, I'll just be super transparent, we actually had applied, the Harvest school that I ended up going to in 2019, we actually had applied together in 2015. Obviously, we didn't get into that school, but the Lord really used that to, I was starting to see like, this is really hindering my walk with the Lord. And then I also was feeling like, in my witness of Jesus, how can I represent Jesus when I'm living this lifestyle?
And so after that, what happened with the Harvest school, this was Mary's idea, but she was like, why don't we just take three weeks apart and just really pray and seek the Lord?
So I was just seeking, I got my own Airbnb, and went there and just was seeking God.
And one night, I had a vision. And I just saw myself with these kind of thorns that were wrapped around my legs. And I asked the Lord, hey Lord, you know, what is this? And I felt like he said, it’s shame and embarrassment regarding your relationship with Mary.
And then I kind of saw this, like a fork open up in the road, and I knew I could either like, fully embrace the relationship with Mary, or I could be fully in for Jesus, but I knew that I was going to have to lay this relationship down. Then it was like, okay, this is a lot for me to take in.
A week later, I end up having another dream. And in this dream Mary and I were swimming back and forth in this, looked like neon green water. And even the cat, the cat was in this water. She didn't- our cat didn't want to even be in this water. And then this lady from the church shows up in the dream, and we said to her, this is hindering us. And she said, well then you have your answer. And so that was like, a pretty clear dream, like hey, this is hindering us. Okay.
So I really felt from this two things, okay, it's time to lay this down. And then Mary, I'm not gonna share her side, but she felt similarly, she knews that she had to lay down this relationship.
And then after that, we had to walk through this separation. The thing is, especially with female same-sex relationships, it’s often very codependent. So having to break those soul ties and the codependency, that was a process as well.
Did you face any opposition or criticism from people who didn't understand like, why you guys were choosing to separate?
Yeah, for sure. For sure. I mean, Because there is people in the church, the ones that were saying that God is blessing the relationship, they were trying to counsel me, like, to stay with Mary and that I wasn't supposed to separate from her.
I think my family was like, they were sad, just because they loved Mary a lot, but also they supported me in my decision.
Wow, that definitely takes a lot of courage and faith.
Do you still experience any forms of same-sex attraction? And if so, how do you deal with that?
No, it's not something that I actively struggle with. I would say there was one season of my walk with the Lord, which I'm gonna avoid a lot of details, but I was really not in a great place with the Lord, and I was pretty angry at him, and I hadn't done a great job of guarding my heart. So I had gotten bitter and offended about some things that had happened.
And I noticed that I was starting to backslide in my relationship with the Lord, and then I noticed that old behaviors, and including the same-sex attraction, started to creep back in, which was a wake up call to really- and, you know, God was so kind and pursuing me of like, like he's literally my only hope, and I don't wanna go back to my life before him.
I think the, you know, the Bible says that if we fall away from him, we actually end up even worse off than we were before, and I was a pretty, pretty hot mess before Jesus. So not trying to go back there.
Yeah, but it's really not, I'm really satisfied in my relationship with Jesus, so it's not something that I actively struggle with. I do know for other believers, it can be something where they have kind of ongoing struggles.
Yeah. So what would you say to those people who do have ongoing struggles or maybe they still don't know if like, you know, is this right, is this wrong, but they really want a real relationship with God?
Yeah, I think like they should just pursue Jesus, like, that's the thing, like, regardless of what we're struggling with, we can always come to him, and he wants us to run to him, not from him.
So I would just say, just to keep pursuing Jesus, just to keep- you know, when we spend time in the Word of God, it actually renews our thinking, and when we encounter truth, lies break off of us. I think there's just power in letting the Word just wash over you and just being in his presence.
You know, it says the Holy Spirit is the one that leads us into all truth. And he will speak truth and and he’s the deliverer, he'll bring freedom. I think the the big thing is, if you are struggling with same sex attraction, don't let, don't go with what the world says and letting that define you, because if you let it define you, you you're gonna give power to to it, and it's going to be that much harder to get free from.
I'd say the same thing like with someone struggling with depression. Don't take on the identity of a depressed person. That's not your identity. Speak the opposite out.
Right. Yeah. Sometimes it can be easy for us to just, you know, accept our situation and be like, oh, this is just who I am, when God has something so much more for us. And if we're not willing to believe like, see the vision that he has for us and believe that is for us, we can easily just backslide or just settle for something that's less than what he wants for us.
Yeah.
[32:26]
So I wanna ask, because I feel like so many people unfortunately have been hurt by the church when it comes to their sexual orientation and their struggles with navigating this tension with faith and their sexuality.
So, what are your thoughts around how do you think Christians and the Church can really better support and love and care for Christians who are experiencing this?
Yeah, I think that's a great question, and I agree like I think the Church hasn't often handled this well. And that certainly was my experience, because you had either people that treated us, they were super condemning and treated us like we had the plague, or you had the other opposite of people just saying that God's blessing this.
Neither of those is helpful, what you want are- you wanna be able to come alongside people, to walk alongside them and to let the Lord- because he deals with things in the order that he wants to deal with.
It's not when we get born again, it's not, yeah, positionally we have the righteousness of Christ, but you can have, you know, and there's things that instantaneously come off, but there's other things that are a process.
And if we're talking about the sexuality issue, there's probably deeply rooted things from the childhood that need to be healed. There's deception that has to be broken off. And all of that takes time.
For some, it could be instantaneous, but for others, it could be a process. Even like, in my case, it probably took me about six years from the time when I started reading the Bible to have that revelation, so it wasn't super fast for me.
So, but I think the main thing is people need to be free, regardless of how messy their life is, they need to be free to pursue Jesus. Don't ever push them out of the Church.
We want people in all sorts of situations to feel like that they can come and that they can see Jesus, because Jesus is the only one who can set them free.
And for me, when I would go to places where the presence of God was really strong, where Jesus was really exalted, I could actually start to feel those chains rattle that they actually begin to break. When you come in that environment, the anointing breaks the yoke. So people need to be free to pursue the one who can set them free.
And then I think we also need to have wisdom. Religion cares about external appearances, and homosexuality is something that is a can often be visible externally, especially if someone is in the same-sex relationship or whatever. And so oftentimes in the Church we want people to be cleaned up on the outside, but we're okay with more internal sins.
You know, we need to let God be God, and for him to reveal and heal at the pace that he wants to. I think with anything, I have to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit of, do I have permission to speak into a sin issue in another believer's life?
Oftentimes, I don't have that permission, right? Oftentimes, the best thing I can do is to intercede for that person. And then you wait, you wait. If there is a time, you know, where you have that trust in that relationship, where God says, okay, Nadia, I'm releasing you to speak truth to this person, but I think what I noticed is that people just felt liberty to, who didn't have relationship with me, to speak into my life without that permission.
[35:56]
The other thing I think is really important is pastorally, I think it's important, like, from the pulpit, to keep preaching and teaching what the Word of God says, presenting God's intent in marriage and sexuality. Like, definitely keep speaking the truth in love. But I think where we have to be sensitive is when we're pointing a finger at an individual.
But definitely, we want people to be exposed to the truth, for their minds to be renewed, and I remember listening to biblical teaching on this topic, and that also really helped me, as well.
Yeah, I heard a pastor say, I think this was last year, or two years ago, with like, another, a large group of pastors, warning pastors about this topic, that if you don't preach the truth, you yourself will start to get confused and soon your whole church will not even be based on the Bible.
This area of sexuality in our culture is like, one of the top areas that the enemy is trying to deceive Christians with. And so, yeah, I totally agree with that. We need to keep sharing truth, speaking it, but also doing it with love and empathy, and not just like, coming at people without any understanding, or any care for their humanity, right?
Yeah.
[37:10]
So I think that's the last question that I wanna ask, is for a Christians who, you know, so many of us are in workplaces or environments where our co-workers don't believe in the same things that we do. Or, for Pride Month, there's a lot of events and celebrations and comments that people make.
Do you have advice or thoughts around how do we navigate that as Christians, to be faithful witnesses, you know, of love, but also standing firm in truth and what we believe in?
Yeah, for sure. And I think like, ask the Lord for more wisdom, we need wisdom from the Holy Spirit in how to navigate that. And we have to be so close to him, because there's gonna be times- there's gonna be many times where you're to be quiet and not say anything. But there's there's gonna be other times where God's gonna put a word in your mouth and say, I want you to speak, I want you to sow this seed.
And so I think just having that closeness with him and praying and crying out for wisdom, ‘cause we need so much wisdom. I think the book of Proverbs, reading the book of Proverbs, being in the book of Proverbs is a key. But really just seeking for for wisdom from the Lord. And discretion as well.
Yeah, and I think another piece of that that helps me personally too is remembering that God's grace truly is sufficient. So even if I say something that I'm like, oh shoot, I shouldn’t have said that, or I do something wrong, like, he can redeem all of our mistakes and all of our flaws. (Totally.)
And so, yeah, I think sometimes we get so caught up feeling this pressure of, I need to be perfect in every single way, when God doesn't expect our perfection, he just wants our faithfulness, our obedience, our trust in him and he can use, you know, even our missteps for his glory.
Yeah, he totally can.
[38:53]
I know we covered a lot, but do you have anything else that you wanna share with people who are listening or watching this right now?
I would just say, with kind of what's going- we're nearing more and more the return of Jesus, and with it, there's just an increase in pressure, there's an increase, basically the darkness is getting darker, but the Church is gonna get brighter and and more glorious.
So I would just say that this is a time where we need to be as close to Jesus as possible, and we need to have our minds just actively renewed in the Word just because every other, like if you look at the media, if you look at the culture, basically, you're being bombarded with lies.
So if you don't have, if you're not strong in the Word, you can very easily fall into deception, and if you don't know Jesus really well, you’re much more prey to the enemy.
So I would just, you know, these are times really just to be sober and alert and just to be as full and as close to Jesus as possible.
And you may even be in a situation where you don't have access to a Bible. So the more Scripture that you have in you is I think vital in this time.
Yeah. So well-said. I got chills when you were talking about that, because I totally feel the Holy Spirit saying that same thing. And you can see all around us in our culture, in our world, just the darkness getting darker, (for sure) but then, those who are chasing the light that you can only find in God, that's also getting brighter.
Yeah, for sure.
You know, we just need to grow, we just need to be able to love people where they're at, because we're gonna encounter people, they, maybe they even got a sex change or there’s just all kinds of brokeness that we're gonna be encountering in these days.
And we have to remember that people are never the enemy, that our battle isn't against flesh and blood. And so we need to be able to love people, to come alongside them. And you know, walk them through healing and deliverance. In fact I think the Church needs, we need the deliverance ministry in this hour a lot.
Thank you so much, Nadia, I cannot overstate just how incredibly grateful I am for you being willing to be open and vulnerable and sharing so many stories of how God's been faithful in your walk. It's truly incredible.
And I'm sure people listening right now or watching, will be so inspired and eye-opened to like, wow, this can happen, this is possible? When most of the world is telling us, this is just how it is. This is what you need to accept.
If people wanted to reach out to you, how would they be able to connect with you? My Instagram is @nadiabenbernou: B-E-N-B-E-R-N-O-U. And they can find me on Facebook. And my email is nadia@irisglobal.org.
Thank you so much. I'm so grateful for you not just being on the podcast, but for our friendship. And just, yeah, your heart for God.
Thank you.